1 (edited by Devcon 2010-01-16 21:23:12)

As the title says.

The spanish capitalization rules are different than the english ones. And in spanish if you make a title something like this:

"007 - El Mundo Nunca Es Suficiente (Spain)" it looks very ugly and not professional, the correct title should be: "007 - El mundo nunca es suficiente (Spain)"

Same with the rest of spanish games on the database.

With all my respect, i'm not a expert in spanish gramatical rules, but looking at titles like this make my eyes hurt.

In spanish capitalization is much more easy than english: Only the first letter of the title should be capitalized, the rest of words are capitalized only if they are the name of persons, pets, cities, etc

Looking at wikipedia i found:

English: The City of Lost Children
French: La Cité des enfants perdus
Spanish: La ciudad de los niños perdidos

Now for sure, in spanish only are capitalized words like personal names (Juan, Pedro, Alejandro), cities, countries, etc (New York, California, España, Madrid), pets (Boby, Mickey).

Then for "Ciudad de los Ninos Perdidos, La" the correct name should be: "ciudad de los niños perdidos, La"

"Ninos" is a word that don't exist in spanish, should be instead "niños"

Niños perdidos is not the name of a city.

For: "Dragon Ball Z: La grande legende des Boules de Cristal" I don't know about french capitalization rules sorry.

Another thing is you can't mix spanish and english rules on the same sentence.

For example: "Disney's El planeta del tesoro"

In spanish the 's termination don't exist, the correct title shoud be:

"Disney: El planeta del tesoro"

How about tilded vocals? Are you guys only using ASCII chars for the project? smile

Devcon wrote:

How about tilded vocals? Are you guys only using ASCII chars for the project? smile

No, the site and the database use utf-8 encoding. Any character can be used and stored properly.

French capitalization has the same rules of than Spanish but in some special case, you can write some "important words" with a capital letter. I mean "En Route pour la Coupe du Monde".

But if you write En route pour la coupe du monde, it's correct too, but less professionnal. French language is a difficult to explain... sorry about that

I'm so sorry for my ugly English!

@RiMMER: Then why the dat file generator is not generating the correct titles and only contain ASCII chars?

Another title i found is incorrect: Manager de liga should be: Mánager de liga.
The rest of PlayStation spanish games seems correct, except the ones i mentioned on my previous post.

Regards.

Devcon wrote:

@RiMMER: Then why the dat file generator is not generating the correct titles and only contain ASCII chars?

Well, I have no clue how these dats are used to this day, so I really don't know how that shit works, but I think I won't be mistaken if I claim that as I said, the site and the database are utf-8 encoded, so they can keep any character intact, but the data they export to dats is either incorrect, or the dat software can't read those characters.

Either way, there's no connection between the site and the dat files themselves. You can store the data in the database, it's the dat software's fault it can't read it, since it's obsolete.

If I'm wrong, I'm open to correction, I won't be arguing with anyone trying to get me right.

I don't believe dat file generator uses UTF-8 encoding, it would be a mess when you think about all the other countries and languages which aren't "familiar" (have more signs) with a simple English alphabet !

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Sorry i can't see the cover, you say this? http://www.maxcaratulas.net/playstation … rtada.html

The title says: Disney - El Planeta del Tesoro

I need to say the title is wrong capitalized, yes it's wrong writed on the media, the correct one is "Disney: El planeta del tesoro"

It's an orthographic anglicism, i challenge you prove me i'm wrong: http://www.elcastellano.org/esbmayus.html

yes, i was just pointing to incorrection

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

After reading carefully this topic, here I leave you my two cents:

Aren't Redump.org using the No-Intro's naming convention? Doesn't all the titles in the db have to respect the rules from that standard?

I mean, according to "The Official No-Intro Convention (20071030)", in the "2.1.3 Capitalization" section says:

Generally all common names, adjectives and verbs should be uppercased.
Articles and link words should be lowercased except when first word.

Examples: Adventure of the Hero, Riding in a Car, Travel from Earth to the
Moon, From Earth..., Into the Darkness...

The official title written by the publisher or developer can be used as a
reference including related titles from other media (movie titles). Some titles
also have an unusual capitalization on purpose. In that case, capitalization
should be left as intended.

Example 1: RoboCop (= Roboter + Cop)
Example 2: Sonic The Hedgehog is all uppercase: "The" is his middle name,
not an article.

However titles that are entirely capitalized should be highly avoided except if
the title is an acronym!

So, under these rules, these titles are indeed right written:

"007 - El Mundo Nunca Es Suficiente (Spain)"

"Ciudad de los Niños Perdidos, La"

Now, it will all depend of which naming standards are Redump.org's currently using.

But looking at Devcon's advices, it seems to be he wants that all the Spanish game titles in the db use the "Real Academia Española" rules, not the No-Intro's rules or whatever be the standard Redump.org is using.

Under that particular point of view, every game in the db that belongs to a non-english speaking country, should be written according to the specific and official idiom's rules of said countries, and not according to a certain Redump.org's predefined naming convention.

So, as I said, it will all depend of what naming convention do you use: the official's idioms conventions, the No-Intro convention, the MusicBrainz's convention, etc.

The title says: Disney - El Planeta del Tesoro

I need to say the title is wrong capitalized, yes it's wrong writed on the media, the correct one is "Disney: El planeta del tesoro"

How do you know they wrote it wrong? Did you know which are the standards they used?

Another title i found is incorrect: Manager de liga should be: Mánager de liga.

Again, where did you found that name? Look at these pics:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5624/managerdeligafrontalpor.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9417/managerdeligacdporfrank.jpg

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6350/managerdeligatraserapor.jpg

In those pics. weren't never mentioned the accentuated, loanword "Mánager", contrarily the developers used the original English word. Moreover, according to No-Intro naming convention or the title itself, the right title should be:

"Manager de Liga"

And if you read the "Real Academia Española" rules, you will find that even under those rules, you can write the next game titles without any problems at all:

"007 - El Mundo Nunca Es Suficiente (Spain)"

"Ciudad de los Niños Perdidos, La"

"Manager de Liga"

"Disney - El Planeta del Tesoro"

The above titles are within these rules:

(...)

b) (...) Los nombres propios, títulos de obras, dicciones y aun cláusulas que se quiera hacer resaltar, pueden escribirse con todas sus letras mayúsculas; pero en cualquer voz en que se haya de emplear letra mayúscula con una o con diferentes minúsculas, aquella ha de ser la inicial o primera de la dicción.

c) Se escribirán con letra inicial mayúscula:

(...)

7.° Los nombres y adjetivos que entraren en el título de cualquier obra: Tratado de Esgrima; Ortografía Castellana; Historia de los Vándalos, etc. No se observa esta regla cuando el título es largo; v. gr.: Del rey abajo, ninguno, y labrador más honrado, García del Castañar.

Regards.

P.D. Please don't take wrong any of my above comments, I'm not pretending to be a smartass. I'm just trying to help, as all the rest of members that make constructive critics.  cool

MacGruber, you are completely RIGHT!

I don't understand what's the meaning of this discussion and it's not the first time. I know also that admin, Fireball, has some weird thoughts.

Titles can be written in any way on covers, any language doesn't use capitalization, even English, unless for names of people, countries, istitutions and so on.
What we use it's simply a convention (not only no-intro, but this convention was used by anyone) and has nothing to do with grammatic rules: everything must be capitalized unless "articles", some "conjunctions" and some "prepositions" ***

File generator contains only ASCII chars and it should be like this becouse of CONVENTION and because it could be a mess for people and/or programs that cannot handle other charsets. Titles with particoular chars can be set as "Alternative titles"

EDIT: *** I edit and add "some" because I don't know how all those were considered in English but Latin Languages don't make any difference.

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Spanish is my primary language (Puerto Rico) and I thought those lowercase titles were fugly.  I stand by MacGruber and Rocknroms.  Using different naming conventions in the same database makes it look disorganized as heck.

iR0b0t wrote:

M00NLiGHT any advise to ^this^ title? >>> Dragon Ball Z: La grande legende des Boules de Cristal ?

La Grande Légende des Boules de Cristal is ok wink
Source: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Z_Legends

I'm so sorry for my ugly English!

Rocknroms wrote:

MacGruber, you are completely RIGHT!

I don't understand what's the meaning of this discussion and it's not the first time. I know also that admin, Fireball, has some weird thoughts.

Titles can be written in any way on covers, any language doesn't use capitalization, even English, unless for names of people, countries, istitutions and so on.
What we use it's simply a convention (not only no-intro, but this convention was used by anyone) and has nothing to do with grammatic rules: everything must be capitalized unless "articles", some "conjunctions" and some "prepositions" ***

No-Intro wrote:

Some titles also have an unusual capitalization on purpose. In that case, capitalization should be left as intended.

For example, beatmania is a trademark, it can't be written in any other form and definetely not as "Beat Mania", like now.

Manager: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsult … MA=manager

Well, i don't want to start a flamewar in anyway. If the no-intro rules are the same for all the languages then it's ok.

The fact is i was just trying to help, and i was just pointing at some orthographic errors i found.

But well i don't care anymore, you can capitalize the way you want but expect to see from time to time someone like me poking on the forums because some titles looks ugly at their native language.

Regards.

The guide is obsolete, No-Intro's convention has its own standard.

Then No-Intro rules + Spanish titles = Some weird Spanglish titles.

I'm sorry to say that i don't like spanglish.

For example, beatmania is a trademark, it can't be written in any other form and definetely not as "Beat Mania", like now.

Obviously copyrighted stuff should be left as they are (LEGO, NiGHTS, etc.), but your example is quite wrong and out of contest because the guide talk about capitalization and not minimation, so at least it should be BeatMania (and most of times on cover it's written "beat mania", so now what we are going to do?). Well, however if I remember well you want also Japanese titles in kanji, very usefull and rational tongue

Devcon, I have already said it above: NO-INTRO RULES ARE THE SAME FOR ALL LANGUAGES, even in English those capitalized titles should look weird but this is the rule.

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/ -- all the arcade ones are "beatmania" and "beatmania" is really a TM.

Rocknroms wrote:

Devcon, I have already said it above: NO-INTRO RULES ARE THE SAME FOR ALL LANGUAGES, even in English those capitalized titles should look weird but this is the rule.

So these titles at the database are correct, and all follow the No-Intro namig rules?:

007: Der Morgen stirbt nie
007: Die Welt ist nicht genug
Manager de liga
Monde des Bleus, Le: Le jeu officiel de l'équipe de France
Tombi 2: Contra los cerdiablos
Versalles: Complot en la corte del Rey Sol

21 (edited by MacGruber 2010-01-18 00:18:32)

Here we go again:

Manager: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsult … MA=manager

Well, i don't want to start a flamewar in anyway. If the no-intro rules are the same for all the languages then it's ok.

It has nothing to do with any flamewar, it is about "clarification" regarding which are the proper ways of do the job; and in this particular case, it is about the respectfully manner of following some predetermined set of rules, according to the naming standards that Redump.org adopted.

Now, I know the English word "Manager" was adopted as a loanword by the Spanish idiom and that according to the "Real Academia Española" the "currently" proper writing is "Mánager", but as said by Rocknroms:

(...) has nothing to do with grammatic rules (...)

That is the core point of all this, whatever be the proper writing rules according to the official conventions of each specific language, there is useless here.

Could you imagine the hypothetical situation under which all the names in the db have to be written following the particular languages' rules of every idiom?

That's because there are common standards.

The fact is i was just trying to help, and i was just pointing at some orthographic errors i found.

The orthographic errors will be determined by the naming standards adopted by Redump.org, not by specific the writing rules of every idiom.

So, it would be good to know exactly which are the Redump.org's naming conventions.  roll

But well i don't care anymore, you can capitalize the way you want but expect to see from time to time someone like me poking on the forums because some titles looks ugly at their native language.

As I said before, I think the mods. and admins have to do their jobs according to certain "standards" and not "the way they want to", because that's basically the aim of the standards.

Finally, I think every time somebody have to report something regarding a "suspicious" game title, alternate title,  etc., they should have to do it only if they think there was a naming standards' violation; and not because they thought a title looked "ugly".

Regards.

P.D.

So these titles at the database are correct, and all follow the No-Intro namig rules?:

007: Der Morgen stirbt nie
007: Die Welt ist nicht genug
Manager de liga
Monde des Bleus, Le: Le jeu officiel de l'équipe de France
Tombi 2: Contra los cerdiablos
Versalles: Complot en la corte del Rey Sol

If you follow the No-Intro's naming rules, I think those titles should be written like this:

007: Der Morgen Stirbt Nie
007: Die Welt Ist Nicht Genug
Manager de Liga
Monde des Bleus, Le: Le Jeu Officiel de l'Equipe de France
Tombi 2: Contra los Cerdiablos
Versalles: Complot en la Corte del Rey Sol

Devcon, titles you reported are wrong. They must be fixed.
Spanish and French should be fixed this way, I don't know about German ones:

Manager de Liga
Monde des Bleus, Le: Le Jeu Officiel de l'Equipe de France (Alt name: Monde des Bleus, Le: Le Jeu Officiel de l'Équipe de France)
Tombi 2: Contra los Cerdiablos
Versalles: Complot en la Corte del Rey Sol

F1ReB4LL, I understood it was copyrighted as any game title is copyrighted. I don't understand why you follow Mame which don't have a DB <---> rom real association but only a GUI where they put names (sometimes wrongly), instead of console releases where the name is always different.
We can put "beatmania" as Alt title, same for every IMO wrong title like this one http://redump.org/disc/6891/

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

I need to say sorry, the other day was a bad day for me in RL, and i don't like to troll or discuss on any forum, i'm a very pacific guy.

First, i didn't know the No-Intro rules, second, seeing some titles at the database with different capitalization confused me (some french, spanish and german ones).

Third, my only intention was and is, helping the project, i'm here since 2007 (psxdb) and i love the project. This is something that obviously sometimes i do wrong.

Regards.