Topic: a bit more on odd GAPs

i think i've found out why EAC would return a rather strange GAP layout sometimes.
it's only a 1 special case, but it happens time to time.

when uncertain you can use Subcode Analyzer to take look at subchannel by yourself.
and so you will see something like this:

Frame  P                        Q-CONTROL Q-ADDRESS Q-TNO Q-INDEX Q-MIN Q-SEC Q-FRAME Q-ZERO Q-AMIN Q-ASEC Q-AFRAME Q-CRC16 
 76661 000000000000000000000000         0          1   07      01    01    57      62     00     17     04       10    232f 
 76662 000000000000000000000000         0          1   07      01    01    57      63     00     17     04       11    995f 
 76663 000000000000000000000000         0          1   08      00    00    01      74     00     17     04       12    5021 
 76664 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      00    00    01      73     00     17     04       13    27d4 
 76665 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      00    00    01      72     00     17     04       14    fd62 
 76666 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      00    00    01      71     00     17     04       15    0391 
 .....
 76811 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      00    00    00      01     00     17     06       10    6d70 
 76812 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      00    00    00      00     00     17     06       11    d700 
 76813 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   08      01    00    00      00     00     17     06       12    a0b0 
 76814 000000000000000000000000         0          1   08      01    00    00      01     00     17     06       13    1ac0 
 76815 000000000000000000000000         0          1   08      01    00    00      02     00     17     06       14    84f5 
 76816 000000000000000000000000         0          1   08      01    00    00      03     00     17     06       15    3e85

this is a PostGAP for Track 07 from some PSX CD:
(last sector for this track from TOC is 76812)
TNO increase; INDEX=0; MSF - resets and counts back
(since it's 74 this time, we can assume result will be a multiple of 75)
and afterwards: INDEX=1; MSF - reset again and count forward
Q=76813-76663=150=2 sec;
this is i think what EAC would do on a 'Detection method A'
'Detection method B' appears to be something less raw since it works on drive that
can't do a full subchannel read and will return correct gaps for 1Data+1Audio CDs
on the other drives it would return a rather random numbers but somewhere close to 2"
so maybe it's just some command for a drive to get pauses and is like outdated by now.
i don't know what 'C' is
P=76814-76664=150=2sec
P goes with a little offset from Q but most of the time yields the same result
but sometimes it would differ, like on older Mega CD games P usually is 186 when Q=150
i guess for this or some other reason it is not used in the most soft at all i think.


#1
01:74>>02:00
Mega CD
  [G-6003] Quiz Scramble Special
  [G-6010] Pro Yakyuu Super League CD
  [T-49014] Cosmic Fantasy Stories
Saturn
  [GS-9101] Fighting Vipers (V1.010)

Frame  P                        Q-CONTROL Q-ADDRESS Q-TNO Q-INDEX Q-MIN Q-SEC Q-FRAME Q-ZERO Q-AMIN Q-ASEC Q-AFRAME Q-CRC16 
 55506 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   18      01    00    16      09     00     12     22       05    8f53 
 55507 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   18      01    00    16      10     00     12     22       06    1316 
 55508 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   18      01    00    16      11     00     12     22       07    a966 
 55509 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          2   00      00    00    00      00     00     00     00       08    a07d 
 55510 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   19      00    00    01      73     00     12     22       09    6bc2 
 55511 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   19      00    00    01      72     00     12     22       10    428b 
 55512 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   19      00    00    01      71     00     12     22       11    bc78

so this is what happens:
ther's ADRESS=2 sector right on boundary, actually it shadows last frame before Pause
(how can you know it's not shadowing a part of a Pause? you can do calc on P.
compared to other tracks, it should increase if it would. it does not in this case)
but EAC counts it as 1st sector of Pause and thus GAP increase by 1 frame
why it is there i don't know, i think it belongs to Audio CD standard and should not be
on mixed mode at all. though it is. on Mega CD and Saturn - every 98th frame.
CDRWin can get GAPs correct in this case.


#2
Other
Mega CD
  [T-44024] Capcom no Quiz: Tono-sama no Yabou
    GAP 01->02=04:00
  [T-49014] Cosmic Fantasy Stories
    GAP 56->57=01:73
Saturn
  [GS-9015] Panzer Dragoon (V1.001)
    GAP 01->02=02:01; rest are 02:00
  [GS-9050] Godzilla: Rettousinnkann (V1.000)
    GAP 05->06=02:39; rest are 01:74
  [GS-9097] Virtua Cop 2 (V1.004)
    GAP 10->11=01:74; rest are 02:00

even though strange GAPs appear to be valid.

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

Yes EAC misses some gaps.

What do you propose to do? Can we fix them manually and tell the EAC guys of the problem?

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

to be honest i don't know. EAC is wrong, but defined dumping relies heavy on EAC. if you keep them that way, more people will be able to compare and verify with DB. it's most importan't i guess.
data shoudn't change, so it must be possible to correct gaps by moving corresponding amount of sectors from track to track. in this case 2352 bytes from the beginning of the track following gap to the end of the one before.

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

I really think you should post this info on EAC's forum.
If it can get fixed on the next beta or final version would be great for dumping!

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

k, i did

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

BTW themabus can you detect the offset for PC-Engine games? I tried with mine and first sector after first data track (i.e. track 2) returns all 00 even with a +738 drive. The disc must have a huge negative offset.

7 (edited by themabus 2007-12-21 16:51:39)

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

i think i can. i use 'px_d8' that Vigi posted link to and i give it an LBA of the data track and even on first and last data tracks result would always be the same. so i think it's ok. it is huge negative most often, you're right.
[TJCD2032] Xak I & II: -1412
[TJCD2024] BABEL: -1578
[HCD9009] Ys I & II: -305
[RHCD1001] Burai: 289
[NAPR-1022] Might & Magic: -1081

i also made a little script that would do a math. maybe you can find it useful. it's on awk.
http://www.mediafire.com/?4nzfhyccym1
so you can place everything in directory where px_d8.exe is and call offset.bat like this
offset DRIVE LBA DRIVECORRECTION
e.g.
offset h 3600 30
it will do 3 readings on different sectors then and return Absolute offset for DB and relative ones for all my 3 drives
to configure your drives change D1,D2 and D3 in offset.awk to your EAC offsets

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

Actually I don't how to use that program at all... I tried a few times but in the end I have no idea what I have to edit in the .bat

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

gigadeath wrote:

Actually I don't how to use that program at all... I tried a few times but in the end I have no idea what I have to edit in the .bat

just use: px_d8.exe driveletterofplextor 0 0

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

Vigi wrote:
gigadeath wrote:

Actually I don't how to use that program at all... I tried a few times but in the end I have no idea what I have to edit in the .bat

just use: px_d8.exe driveletterofplextor 0 0

I already knew that, I used D8 already... problem is that PCE games have huge negative offset so D8 returns all 00 with every drive I have

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

i'd get 00 sometimes on audio sectors but never on data so far. but our drives are different. maybe ther's a firmware update?

12 (edited by gigadeath 2007-12-22 12:24:46)

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

Ok I get this output with D8. What is the offset for this disc?

LBA read is 3590 (first data track)

6EFE42B3722AB787707F55F5A0933A8A
98791FA0FB220442947C703E47A0E1BB
1334668D10387AE27D3A63360CF273DC
C0FD7513BD9E32CD7D5D127F28853815
0A6A23880BFD9482CAC02B411E73D5C7
CDA48DDE9F62236A1E531695F6D2F784
0D511B6794013417E4988D696B68FDEF
4BDAB7915545A1A5636ABE7E4A3F60A3
FE3FC39ED7EBDF495FB63E15399184B7
72C334F208AC356B913DA29BEB2A8509
A3CC9AB098DAECBA8580EF663D030F39
9E5FB02F87CA2494D5A94DBF3FE690C0
8F1557C9F8B3056A516ED2F17E4AE646
932C5087A53AECA0DBFE188E8CB6E43C
9DD123FF5CB3FF33E199BBA5F54A9EE9
9514B617217D4E67B7A4709CE25A19BD
1C714387749161AA49F7450AF5362EC8
4C0CE61D9D7A7FA523F5DFC499D56D5F
EB9B0A1881CC81DD9395EBDE2686E2B8
843C23790849578BF4FFE14848DD1287
659A1FA016E391A2FE1CDBC038959C60
E046B9302E884E213A9618807842FE59
9C7A2D7894416AFEA0C9D6A7DC26D9D7
9A16708707E70C454C5D84FB7DA39B24
C81F07BE692BC76B86253A7D15A8884D
37FCE4C23C09CC2A5FC77EC2600AE8AB
D998DF25BFD9FF3F83DFDACE77796CA4
A5DB3116F88A2E6CDA676C564CC52AD0
C686C55B95AB153863D64515BFDA3239
078BF5389782C716C3B74CB7AE20AE5F
61063385C7E40F0D5FC353AE23C03677
0D31579EE3ECD21BFE839277B3666EAF
DAF95B90F831790FA5E73D9882B47E2C
2F69B4ECDC87CBE34ACA037638579EF8
BA0158C3548A617B337A73095468FF70
93DF28E670AD60AFF21B878EAD629BEE
474A796523677A4FF8016E1BC5FF878A
7A0125895C5568B65CF50E9F5984B0FB
32D395C6AFBE2B17DA81BCE2BEECF382
3EF7FC2B8BD92F7A962E82188D4163E4
DF8FF95FDDFB8D1887B3A425815C0CBD
293AD2061FA0DA212C878DBE1FE171C6
0E061387CB2159DD18CB89DBCC81F21E
12624B7A79E647D8F3562FEC7B3D5730
874960682AA0FC08AEE0FBA405709125
A084722914D730D819708CD574ACFFFB
28F794982E9E77E673F1233DB326B31A
CC0F8D6CF7163F84FFD89850FA07F848
ACCD679BB6357B81CA6E5AAE6C7B7065
3675D4D8F93A28B5B169FE43F3BCC30D
DE034CBB3AEA522FF66E819B6D1C1BA4
52C40E657297ABA9214F99BFAD582CBE
E5938C05BDCA376640814E70453018AB
DA8E010FFBD432047E38B063EC0277D1
97C5288C7D9AA14A03D504893178C54C
5B60C14A15213D8640A925B8C211AF4C
9D0C4B832150466C9C25BCE313CF1BE5
155B84ECE54150E480F24987FD6C4FAF
F0345A21C34299B11B7EC263D78B27FA
DDF414F039698B51948A599BB4ECE97C
8F2A63B738F2EAE64822AE90BA9D6502
1551BE685BD16B6D35462CA2ECA2A642
6AC0F73BBC8340B8B62DD5E2DFE8A2AC
BCABC0E140E6B85FC99A13FD3C5F8133
F5D3DE3EE690ABAB9D59FFF55E37D69E
CBAE755AF1741A5780E9260241154CB6
1C74C690E45451B7BAC7CCEDCC6027A3
393593A7FC598E74FAA9593A7A5C52B7
34B54E05B33438A03CE396D1709243B1
F4F1405428E3EEE544768890D050923B
B3A2343210FD9D05D1E0DB6043613719
00A17E68513A97ECFEBC9A5A50AB0D64
6E10BC7D69CA14C73E0BD6583DC5D172
26C79FC4990D7A2B6B4A54553A6922B0
C97FC36608C9F85623F97BE47504F933
AC1DA88F9C82BFAEAE0CB79270A13FEC
ACF4D44550048ABB3DFB3933116AD5C2
AD5A9E37692A7179EFACD2F3C78152DB
0D12CCCE0AFF6A5DEE54AE20A485D320
5AEBE4FBC0832DB87D1C989886F61E5A
F27C646EAC0DD382E40ECC3D1B96FA61
84590D3DACBEFA994D6DB4E2F008AA41
E65F0DA1CBFE06CF4485DD6550043A4A
DD31785B64DAC55D6AD6A967B0ECC502
D570F1226D76ABCFF1524532B5549939
33BDD3A853E7EC4D94A449623F4E897D
B0CCE995A3CDA8B0472DF1DA58097F1A
FEEB79CAC42E9C4A906C5AD4A6F7E554
D8A030629BE6BAED66968D71CE83DF2A
81ECA6E7254FC8B937B6C65116ECA909
6105AE419F18C2217A1262764808EEE3
684C681FF10CD7C8FF9490CA6E88EBC8
8E3380D0B217964B0BF382CFE02FE832
16F0ACDAA453F27F7CE38480D27424E5
FE020077C0CE29137DA52F90DCE618B1
2B1A472E17986DC0F7B3C890D2289B98
B96B112DE9594B70F6DFE6F612A38769
36DA9475FAC40DC6CEAC01E2E694EE7B
557BE7CF6A7909F120B83B18CB091284
7548BFA55D3087E0A5AB806F29D54EF5
192F882FE5FD16C6E38D8F88078CEE16
0F2FC6A21A0FA8F69BEE562B88FC9624
87E6057CE0D06D750D881D5985B64B34
305756B6BEF0795424395957F060076C
03E70DA1803A6417671EAE977C2B4178
AF6E00F334DE7AE381A7F81FA7AB2841
05596D2008B0C60FF36A1D8A20A7ABF8
9A6A2B9CDC4CF1377FB68E2E817C60FB
E093CE1E166D666D192EAFD56CCA7BC2
043DE5FCB007EB995FB50797AC71765C
BA7BD05AFE4B317A0BE1108F5B2A6E2E
03C543722ACE7ED2778F8A4FE295636F
9D88F12D83E110BC486436AB56FF7EC0
2D69569BE02326D3ADA9739427A6E6B4
C3E1981FE3EE6F33B262881B4B71E33D
8BCB717DCD6386C762F611C79E51F8B1
D20F0F568E9016C08EA968972999377C
90A2204D6D1DD0304BCAADCC91ADCBC7
C13D07357D99235AAB3844B5879D2671
BAB120B9E5CA99636C04C379649FCE1C
6B46E0C13C128C092CAE3748CB59F850
62165DB9F24EC067F0EBB14A234666B9
9FF94160A147372FAFD24BB8A5F704E0
BA60AE3FCABC36E7C6F2AB65FB4C0071
6E7D7390E8EEAD40770670F7B54A74C2
648FA162416D18C8EDFD108ABB7F9B4A
E4534D7A401BB9394E43C77F4EDB7559
89A28C1B1F5AE2EE89F6A96FCE82CEA2
3D13BE460A48DCE597375F30CC8172D0
9C1A68572CC0A849E22D49C3DD6272DB
B07E060F00FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF00
01C96861C8B91DD611151A66DB12B623
B3486048DB1E9E886866AECA1F7F01E0
004800565316E00EC80456E30DE1E048
4836B6F635EEC6CC52D5FDFF21214044
50DA00B129A87D276842C349017C7B55
2022F28B9594AF5A55348CD690F7E1B5
4802FEE55C5CE4FBAFE57673BEC87A50
AE31A20163E1FDF1C9E08ACBA83AD790
193A30677F853239B134EEBB8651063F
58E66E99ECAE2343EF6E6F06B60711FF
D702291158059FD62A2A47D9F40AC0F2
1A359817CBD8FEF8AA46F6A1DAB6D975
583A7DC3A54F7153EB7F11275CDE6252
7CE5B28BDFC136767EA1E1192E3C8CB7
93A64B8CA7838C9D24955A13FA7102DB
81EAF04ABF379406EAC9CFA6C47F7860
Press any key to continue . . .

And this one too (another disc)

LBA read is 100

6A0FC52A0DC0AD1EA4AF0203EE7B6F75
79699C1955439526B016F1DF6A9E6C3F
62DFBF80F524F91A55BB11E1AA2AA10B
36B72991062167F3D363F875FE0F8F5E
62F7F0F920AADD661DFCAA851F8C9796
50A6115212C3C988F1AC9E8F2F124E00
7624606A09392675FFDBDE64F9704F4E
59D6755531033D5E2C75916A48699756
B2E15107B18C0971AC4B26BE23F1AD9C
42AC660C8504BD6CF5A55A6900FFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFF00018326620028081E
8008680640F9017E5DF8C029281E1505
809D515577EAE91BFFB78BB72017E00E
4186E6827EE16BC1EC37B6967F6472CD
52D516BB8A3DE8857FDFEB9DC0F16178
A3E82EA8A87E7728E07930221F8B1B4B
FC378846245FE038C3975E76491A3D43
82D656DEEF53E0EAA53B3B01D8F0151A
7E7788CB75D501148580FBD17FC1F8B9
E906CE095989649797AD17D07D69E1EE
BD73DDE05A7C425209B7F0E977F0A539
0A1FB4F6F7338B399F5116D61D2B0BF5
54BD01323D789CD8971ADB9EB722F561
F477B8791CBBB08D3798BFA7C9445687
5D4E75BBF3C2391A17A49272122C0F1B
24B35BBE761BFC817E69EAEC29369E7F
726ECEACD7007761F500EB4B0C833C92
29E7FCD57D6162154C82495F768D3549
D775725D5B95FDF67E4DD6513E129C0B
0F8ABEB3412801211C1D80E6F1F3EDC0
64E3C47FABCC1645144E0D3A6E03E67E
986BD240C1796F3267A465251A67CAEB
175E36B8471AF1E8BC53B8B9C78AB235
2C5E72A99CC88DFFB55A8A3969397E18
DF1813B2626960D1B897C3610F9938EB
130F1CBC09E02EBA7FDF7D1165B933E8
5A5A4A47FCB00294BAEF63879F65CE13
145C44C87CC8D0AA3448C52FF55792F1
39752E7A86DA88E326425F3E20E124C3
D31ABA66F3E34887ECF3F24E55E3122D
CD5400F550D503948420FBA97FE36038
4A0C3659DB7BA792C88B4BB6210FA7CF
B75BA8CA020A80B6826860F2A58CC7D2
E0BB95C655A23246544E86C0447CFC6E
551D03CA3BB2E146C831A2821362D8B2
E14A2017D358717161ABF08E38B9CAC7
7CBF613BA59CE558B7F127CF37F9D64B
8B2513DD1AB8EF3245506D44A2FCE7F0
B6478F9F57DDFED9F4476BAEE0E8B972
7967AD892327D09F4E50B93757CB7F9E
2DF641D37A8360EA7DC0B5614BEBCD2A
A7AC7AFEEC859AC466D0A159F7E237F5
5D0AF61977B67B3696F7C3060D5BF453
99FCB52119D44D03B19DD6131E065D8D
6D54D122DE2C38F01218909BBA520CE2
6527671D0DB52553556029175ECEB854
B53AC54ED4CB1F57B8016B157E13D932
0648F3E0D4B7C0967EE2E7EED0609207
B17BCBEAD2CD05513FF7DD2D03E7BE43
3DFFCFC168BB7637B919221BA602EF43
98F5564CBBBE6FA253B0387A0A627BE2
2E860213BD4664317F90DCE58881CBCD
979E2B27C79BEE62CD3F74F427EEE482
BB2138D59D0158FCE700FB225DD8E53F
9A14D27081B9810D09F3A26517674876
4325D2F99D097C4975079B9F291DBE64
70F7C11794B7D0FD19CE122531069473
4D7B74FFC251154530EDEDC9E28FA26F
0F8AD1A24DAF8A203A8963DB5BFFDBAE
D77BF9F9AE0447D824A552F68798B496
7CFB6652AD027414215B9F87C336591C
349101509AE599B8079DF0F143F8A85B
7D6E24F9E0DA1E27C1DF2A45C90CDD48
5E28FFA249B430EC13F266D16216A7D3
2CA20760301B396420B69FC9318F17B1
291E512B7C94F420D3A961356D98B55B
CBA6D50F7FA9E0A2500854983E3570B9
E87512520A9FB6E8FD434E2F8520BE99
45CB9ED7F403726788846AE4C908F666
C8B70089C026D01A1B8EB939B52DB71D
46B66BA31A165BBFED217247855C6F7E
4A449B69E0985058A8EA0244446489EA
D8D7CFE23F1114CB80CD316A1DE2BB97
E3D24248FA26512575CE9900BFBCFBB4
0CEFB4B0FCF9B25CA505328B5F40D5F0
D491A0F8AD7E743031B930727D9DAF5B
3CB0D43B87A21E24086AE4B18A28C20F
957D50FDA1A0C791A488DB885720626D
AC8E9DA4E236860893BA30B6E15964CF
1239CD59407564D657C3BB649CC49828
F41FD9B1DE9B4100BB7615B34A642114
C452C20D6C378976482AF1385EBE76CB
FB017C89E44CD3AFE13785D1385BAD72
F0139A5E17935A6531F54C9D09331F67
7B07CC00CD13E954573CABD4BAF4E7DD
765033460424FC90C45B8BA89BB72EF0
8183DFCACCDFDF1645D8CCC00C62B6C4
D9A1073FBD49A8752B82DBA951B0A1A2
07A31B0B786A0DDD585E4561EAEB9A4A
36F888B3DA7E4A6B1A428BF8F290F12A
133E69D0A799E4D244122D3CE10C4974
54B9FE2EA5B14D36DCB881CFC5D9EA33
CA90CC7A2A7DC6E628E412CCEBF223DE
D64CAF8961A4D9D8C45BCF1EB93EE80D
1CD93571C2F61B6FE5343672DB1CB24C
70AEB203E81C53DBA167E56F620271BC
C45115F9B62BF35A5EAD07E11F155A53
87A202574DB9129F214057E8CFF20985
B741283102F1ACB27F5C8E61D90DD73C
B79473B433C8CB0F50FE12CC0A33A0F9
7B4D7D04DD1ED8B9F8EC43D1943159CE
5F86261E71DDB6135FE3A0349D9A9082
29A485AD5CA0249D49378A1D32520163
BCA064AA3FA7ACF13863CA762BEF5A12
23D0E5771CF4C2AE7FE45D6B5969FF17
E90B0BDC116651F79114F4F3DA00366F
94C13788EA3BD2FE0DB60B4287FAEF00
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Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

First one: sync/header output indicates sector 3593, so you have to substract the difference in sectors: (521 samples before sync) - (3*588) = -1243 to dump

Second one: output indicates sector 101: (39 - 588) = -549 to dump

maybe themabus can verify tongue

Re: a bit more on odd GAPs

Thanks!

Second one was a data-only PC game, it was needed only for reference

First one I'll dump now big_smile

Can you split this discussion from my post "BTW themabus..." in another thread? It's offtopic now sorry