Let the devs know about what has been said here, they can make they own considerations, we have no real affect on them smile

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

No global commands are needed right now. These commands will be only useable when and if we decide to dump lead-outs/lead-ins (which are standard in 99,99999999% of cases and could be generated with REM LEAD-IN/REM LEAD-OUT commands instead, similar to PREGAP/POSTGAP). You're trying to alter the whole cuesheet logic and don't even understand that, nobody will bother with such a complicated format. If you have nothing to do - make a new XML-based cuesheet alternative instead. We need a simple cue extension right now (or 2xcues with no extensions at all), not the ability to put any data at any position leaving the huge undescribed holes between the data portions.

53 (edited by Jackal 2018-12-25 14:55:00)

F1ReB4LL wrote:

No global commands are needed right now. These commands will be only useable when and if we decide to dump lead-outs/lead-ins (which are standard in 99,99999999% of cases and can be generated with REM LEAD-IN/REM LEAD-OUT commands, similar to PREGAP/POSTGAP). You're trying to alter the whole cuesheet logic and don't even understand that, nobody will support such a complicated format.

REM SINGLE-DENSITY AREA
REM HIGH-DENSITY AREA

This would require coders to implement 2 commands exclusive to dreamcast discs, one with a prefixed start LBA of 0, and the other with 45150.

It would be less complicated and more useful to have a single new command, START or AREA or whatever you want to name it, which requires input of the start LBA.

I hope you will agree, so that we at least have something to work with and to submit to developers.

Jackal wrote:

This would require coders to implement 2 commands exclusive to dreamcast discs, one with a prefixed start LBA of 0, and the other with 45150.

Because that's the only existant case of a disc with isolated sessions, there's no other similar case. For Saturn rings you need to implement the REM LEAD-OUT command to describe the exact amount of sectors before the ring, for multisession discs you need REM LEAD-OUT for the first session with the amount of lead-out sectors and REM LEAD-IN for the amount of lead-in sectors of the 2nd session, you don't need any direct LBA addressing, that's way away from cuesheets paradigm. We need to develop a custom format for direct LBA addressing if you want it that much.

Which "whole cuesheet logic" do you mean @F1ReB4LL ?

I am not trying to alter the cuesheet standard, we are talking about REM tags, which are not even specified in cuesheet standard if i understand it right.

Arrange an agreement with other tool devs and i will implement whatever you want, please relax.

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

The logic is to map all the data without the holes, I've offered a single exception and you've turned this single exception into a completely different cuesheet logic.

Okay, i understand.

The single cuesheet variant was already implemented. Do you want to stick to that or change to 2cue variant?

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

58 (edited by Jackal 2018-12-25 15:34:08)

I'm getting confused about this discussion. It will always be about filling holes.

There are basically 3 options which essentially do the same thing:

- Use PREGAP, which is already available and supported (but which you both don't like)

- Use "REM SINGLE-DENSITY AREA" + "REM HIGH-DENSITY AREA", which can only be used by emulators and requires hardcoded LBA values. (this seems to be the only option that F1ReB4LL is willing to discuss)

- Come up with a new command, which would get easier approval by other developers (e.g. IsoBuster), even if in the end it would only actually be useful for Dreamcast discs. For example:
REM STARTLBA "HIGH-DENSITY AREA" 45150
REM STARTMSF "HIGH-DENSITY AREA" 10:02:00
REM AREA "HIGH DENSITY" 45150

or even a simple GAP (in LBA of MSF) command to put in between tracks:

REM GAP 09:42:68

Yeah, i wanted to expand this discussion to eventually handle everything we can need for future usage once and for all, but the pressure for a change to cue instead of gdi seems to be too high and all my words don't reach some listeners smile

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Jackal wrote:

- Use "REM SINGLE-DENSITY AREA" + "REM HIGH-DENSITY AREA", which can only be used by emulators and requires hardcoded LBA values. (this seems to be the only option that F1ReB4LL is willing to discuss)

I see this option as the fastest to implement _right now_ due to hardcoded LBAs and no additional attributes.

Jackal wrote:

- Come up with a new command, which would get easier approval by other developers (e.g. IsoBuster), even if in the end it would only actually be useful for Dreamcast discs. For example:
REM STARTLBA "HIGH-DENSITY AREA" 45150
REM STARTMSF "HIGH-DENSITY AREA" 10:02:00
REM AREA "HIGH DENSITY" 45150

This needs lots and lots of further discussions about how to handle the lead-in, lead-out, security ring and other portions of data (and whether to use the cue sheets at all for these, not some xml-based format instead), that additionally rises the question about how to handle the TOC and the first pregap in the -150 to -1 area. And it's going to be a very bad idea to implement these LBAs now and lead-in/lead-out/rings/whatever later. Because the next time devs may refuse to change the cue scheme once again. If they accept the simplier format above, we could try to discuss the further format expansions with them.

And don't forget the format is primarily meant for DC emus which, again, don't need those LBA commands, because the area LBAs are hardcoded to 0 and 45150, your commands can do the parsing routines more complicated and the format less attractive to support (and we want it to be supported by as many emus as possible, including MAME - good luck explaining them how to process your proposed LBA commands and do all the addressing properly).

The format _right now_ should be as easy as possble, the complicated parts need to be well discussed before adding.

And once again, just in case I wasn't clear enough: adding those LBA commands to GD cues only is absolutely pointless, because they are hardcoded and cannot be changed; adding them to all the cues for multisession (and maybe other) needs needs (lol) to be better discussed and documented.

Fantastic gentleman!

iR0b0t wrote:

Sure! I am just waiting for the confirmation that the new format is being accepted by emu and what not.

I've submitted feature requests to the two main DC emulators in active development (redream/reicast-libretro). Inolen (the redream developer) says he will add support if "people want it". It's more likely to be implemented when we fully switch over.

PX-4824TA (offset +98), PX-716A (offset +30)

63 (edited by diego-rbb-93 2018-12-31 16:32:59)

Knowing Inolen, i guess he just meant that he will implement it but he still wants to give priority to other task on his "I want to do" list. He's still working hard on the Android port and lot of people is asking about Windows CE implementation, so you can expect him to take his time about checking this.

As long as we have confirmation from devs being ok with how the structure works, they will implement it sooner or later.

64 (edited by user7 2018-12-31 17:39:24)

We're also chatting with MetalliC of demul/MAME. inolen says his hands are tied with Android, but expressed interest in adding the new format.

Once we have DC USA dumped and archive.org'd then I think inolen will be more eager to add support faster (at least he's expressed interest in this). I'll probably be able to dump all of VGDB's DC discs before the end of JAN so that gives us a timetable.

Okay, thanks for the feedback guys.

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Does this change mean we can now submit unlicensed Dreamcast discs like Gameshark?

Gameshark belongs to http://forum.redump.org/topic/20409/dis … ssion-cue/