1 (edited by defor 2015-05-13 06:07:59)

Topic: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Editing this down because i didn't really mean this as discussion, so i'll make it simple:

I hate having to write this...
I wish i could help more on the project, but about a year or so ago, I was very disappointed in the ill-advised changes to database entries that were being made. They were neither well researched or well-advised, and simply reduced the accuracy of the database.
After consulting a few admins, and giving myself (a rough guess) a year to think about it, I've decided that I can't in good conscience continue to contribute to Redump PSP project.

Now I have no control over how you run the project, and I don't mean any disservice, but I don't believe I can continue to be part of this project moving forwards sad

Thanks for the good times in the past, and best of luck to Redump project in the future!

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

defor wrote:

Please remove this disc from the database, as I all i get are constant request to not hoard it, even though it has no place a database of production discs- I should never have submitted it.

I don't think we accept "remove the entry" requests, especially, if the dump itself is correct, just hoarded.

defor wrote:

After hearing this, and realizing how much for years it's been drilled into dumpers that "accuracy is important, validate EVERYTHING, we want an ACCURATE database with proper information about all releases", I had a bit of a meltdown.

Adding a non-existant hyphen is "accurate" for you? And you were so disappointed in removing the hyphens you've decided to leave? Sounds funny smile

"Asia" is for Hong-Kong, etc. releases, remember those PAL-60 Sega MD consoles for Asian non-Japanese market? These are "Asia". As for the games, you should probably check the barcode, not the serial (and who said ULJM means Asia? UCAS is for Asia, iirc).

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

defor wrote:

the hyphen is part of the catalog code- you can even look up in sony's online catalogs and the hyphens are present.
It simply denotes the separation of the licensing group from the entry number, it's not correct to remove it if it's not on a pressing. that like saying that someone forgot the hyphens on their phone number once so clearly that the hyphens aren't right.

Ask ir0b0t to make some easy "replace spaces with hyphens in psx serials" script tied to your nick and be happy.

defor wrote:

That is PRECISELY my point.
The comment in my forum post that is linked at the beginning of the dialog is:

I'm pretty sure that the version that in in the database above should be considered ASIA country code as it's CLEARLY entered with an asian box serial code.

Well, I believe the db should have a standalone flag indicating the release for the particular region was dumped, but it shouldn't affect naming, "(Japan, Asia)" is incorrect, sorry.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

F1ReB4LL wrote:

Well, I believe the db should have a standalone flag indicating the release for the particular region was dumped, but it shouldn't affect naming, "(Japan, Asia)" is incorrect, sorry.

My last reply:
The whole reason this became an issue for me was that there WAS an ASIA flag on the dump, but it was removed. I pointed this out, and was told that this is not how the rules work any more, and that ALL double-flagged ASIA/JP or ASIA/US etc. dumps were getting their ASIA flags removed (even though this reflects their actual release info and history of what was actually dumped). Loss of important metadata due to edits like these makes any attempts at actually even trying to complete an asian set all the harder.

This, along with renaming games to match their releases on other platforms, even though this is contradictory to the "new rules" that naming should be identical to what's on the disc, regardless of typos, regardless of current or past interpretation of the "new rules", now every dump will have to be inspected IF the goal would be to reverse any of the changes that had been done.

Let's throw out any arguments for or against the hyphens, the clear issue is that edits to the database were performed by one or more individuals to conform to a rule change that may or may not have been intended to have been interpreted that way. regardless, if these edits are considered correct, they love the database less accurate than it started. And that's not what I signed up for, a project that prided itself in capturing a ton of data for every release and making sure it was right at submission time, not changing it all the time so that it "looked better" or was more in key with what "SCENE" was doing. I thought Redump didn't follow scene rules, and was a project that prided itself in having original content.

Signing out.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

defor wrote:

Loss of important metadata

defor, I don't even understand your whole points but this one if that means that there are no notes about actual regions being dumped. On the other hand, regions can be deduced from bar codes and or serial numbers in case of console games.

defor wrote:

the hyphen is part of the catalog code- you can even look up in sony's online catalogs and the hyphens are present.

We are NOT re-cataloging sony's catalogs!
Our goal is to preserve game release pressings, which has nothing to do with foreign company catalogs. Prints and misprints.

Please do not cry like a small stubborn child crying for a candy.
I am not trying to offend you now, I just mean that we are not doing things without a good reason. Maybe you can look at things from another perspective and it will make you change your mind.

Regards

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

iR0b0t wrote:

defor, I don't even understand your whole points but this one if that means that there are no notes about actual regions being dumped. On the other hand, regions can be deduced from bar codes and or serial numbers in case of console games.

Well, it's ok if you change those radiobuttons to checkboxes, so each release could be checked for the db. But it's pointless to list all the countries in the filename (which is limited to 255 symbols, including the path), otherwise, it would be a mess in the PC section, where 1 game can be released in dozens of countries. Generally, Asia = Japan, even if the same disc was released with different serials and barcodes for different Asian countries - the internal serial is still Japanese. If the discs themselves were different - of course, these would be (Japan) for one and (Asia) for another.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

That's why i started this topic http://forum.redump.org/topic/14267/ but since no one really cared i stopped my conception.

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Serial number hyphens but no mention of adding phantom "IFPI" text to NTSC-J mould codes? Actually I don't know, can't read the original post to see if you mentioned it, but serial number hyphens are at least an attempt to show what is written on the actual product. This entry says "IFPI 45U1" for the mould SID code and it's just a flagrant lie because that literally is not written on the disc, it's only "45U1". It's not even arguably correct that we add "IFPI" there, it is simply and factually incorrect and there's no argument for it. And then we don't even add NULL data for fields that should contain it, we just omit it and make it look like the submitter himself omitted it as well. Then how do we know that the submitter didn't just miss it? Well, we don't.

My point to saying all this: sure, we could improve some things still, and I always hope that Redump will choose to improve them. But at the end of the day we are submitting to the only database that allows people to check your hashes for images. All serial number, ring code, and any other second-priority crap aside, this database is the only one that does what it does and it's pretty cool and special to be able to submit to it. Even if some things are wrong, the important stuff is right. As a fellow dumper I would hope that you could just see past the imperfections to be able to contribute to a database that's doing an awesome thing, but if little things like serial number hyphens (which aren't even really that inaccurate...) bother you that much, I guess it's sadly your choice.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Egen wrote:

This entry says "IFPI 45U1" for the mould SID code and it's just a flagrant lie because that literally is not written on the disc, it's only "45U1". It's not even arguably correct that we add "IFPI" there, it is simply and factually incorrect and there's no argument for it. And then we don't even add NULL data for fields that should contain it, we just omit it and make it look like the submitter himself omitted it as well. Then how do we know that the submitter didn't just miss it? Well, we don't.

It was done to prevent the multiple listings of the same ifpi printed with different fonts/cases, I remember a case in the very beginning, when the same IFPI was in uppercase and in lowercase for 2 copies of the same CD or something like that. What can I say to this - gentlemen, we need scans smile Since there are lots of logos and other stuff as well (like barcodes), that are barely reproducible in the simple text form. And when you have a little scan attached next to each ringcode, the text representation in db would be needed only for the searching purposes. Same for the barcodes. Another bright idea for the rings themselves (not the moulds) is to make a special font for each ring type, so the letters and logos (which can be a part of some font as well, similar to Wingdings) would look exactly like the real ring text.

As for NULL, it is used sometimes, when you need to list different mould IFPIs for the same ring.

10 (edited by Jackal 2015-05-14 22:57:46)

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Grabbing a beer big_smile j/k I dont drink alcohol

Good point about the IFPI adding.. I've caught F1ReB4LL doing this several times.. as for the hyphen in Sony serials, I've always added them before because this is what logic tells us (this is how serials are structured, and also how Sony uses them on websites and inside PS3 files etc). It wasn't until Pablo came along that F1ReB4LL got infected with OCD about this

Another similar issue is barcodes.. Is there any real point in including spaces or > ?

Maybe a good compromise would be to display this information in two ways: The way it's written exactly on the disc, and conventionalized. The conventionalized codes will be cleaner and better for reference / googling and have the same information value (perhaps more, since e.g. barcodes without spaces are easier to find on google).

edit: So F1ReB4LL replied earlier with maybe the same thoughts: Scans would be a better way of recording non-standardized information (with a format that tends to vary with each disc or each manufacturer) such as logo's, incomplete mastering codes, barcodes with spaces, serials with missing hyphen, etc. than the current OCD approach.

edit2: Anyway, the point that I was trying to make is that information is data that is structured, and in this case, structuring mastering codes, serial numbers and barcodes means transforming them into a conventionalized format for easy reference. This is what a database should be about.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Well, I believe jap PS1 titles should be hyphenless in general, PAL and NTSC ones seem to be with hyphens. Dunno about other systems (except PCE, where there's no logic for hyphens and spaces at all). Maybe would be a good idea to ask ir0b0t to remove all the hyphens for ps1 jap and to manually fix all the exclusions, if any.

Another similar issue is barcodes.. Is there any real point in including spaces or > ?

There is, someone was even trying to explain me all those spaces, Ts and >s belong to the certain standard, different types of barcodes fall into different standards (something like different ringcode types help to identify different mastering companies). Anyway, better to keep them as is, since it's way easier to retype these properly, compared to the rings.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

I also find it a little bit funny that we go through all this trouble to write stuff like serial numbers and ring codes "exactly as they appear" but then don't do this for titles roll

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

I've always thought the whole No-Intro convention was written for preserving the titles "exactly as they appear".

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

NOBODY DOES TITLES EXACTLY. IF THEY DID MOST OF THEM WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS!

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Yeah that's really what I'm talking about tongue

It just doesn't make a lot of sense. "Our goal is to preserve game release pressings" so we write some things exactly as they appear and others how they actually don't appear at all by adding text that doesn't exist. Then titles are standardized.

neutral

I'm not going to leave the website over it though. The most important part still remains the same and that is hashes. You just sometimes wish that some of the other stuff made more sense.

16 (edited by Heihachi_73 2015-07-05 00:31:36)

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Jackal wrote:

Another similar issue is barcodes.. Is there any real point in including spaces or > ?

I don't think there is. The barcode itself is simply a string of digits/data with no spaces between any of the digits. The spaces are only there to separate human-readable country/manufacturer codes (first half) from product codes (second half), and the > is just there as an end-of-text marker which is not present in the barcode data either.

It would be interesting to show the actual barcode itself in the description, similar to what UPC Database does. Edit: This identically-named UPC Database also has the same feature.

To me it's like like a game having a ™, © or ® symbol in the title. I'm sure you wouldn't want to edit the entire database to add those, or else we would end up with things like "TEKKEN", "TEKKEN 2™", "TEKKEN 3®", "Tekken Tag Tournament™", "Tekken™ 4" and "Tekken™5". Yes, that's how they look on the spine of the PAL versions. smile

17 (edited by Jackal 2015-07-04 07:22:01)

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

I've corrected around 200-300 bad barcodes in the past month.. I agree that the spaces / end marker is unneccessary and perhaps even impractical because people search barcodes on google without the spaces. iR0b0t was going to optimize the barcode field and add a validation check. Maybe a nice solution would be to show the barcode as a number initially, and moving the cursor on the barcode or clicking on it would then reveal the barcode the way it's shown on the box.

Re: Some comments, complaints, and my departure...

Jackal wrote:

Maybe a nice solution would be to show the barcode as a number initially, and moving the cursor on the barcode or clicking on it would then reveal the barcode the way it's shown on the box.

Better to show it "like on the box", but with some hidden digit string for search engines.