Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

I've thought, this tread isn't only about EAN sectors. All the unusualities should be examined using the subs.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Checked both games left from my dumps.

Kyutenkai is ok.

Whizz seems the opposite of Gunbird, here is the sectors between data track and pregap. For more details look at my explanation above.

Frame  P                        Q-CONTROL Q-ADDRESS Q-TNO Q-INDEX Q-MIN Q-SEC Q-FRAME Q-ZERO Q-AMIN Q-ASEC Q-AFRAME Q-CRC16 R                        S                        T                        U                        V                        W                        
 30069 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      68     00     06     42       68    aa34 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30070 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      69     00     06     42       69    1044 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30071 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      70     00     06     42       70    3f7a 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30072 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      71     00     06     42       71    850a 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30073 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      72     00     06     42       72    5bbb 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30074 000000000000000000000000         4          1   01      01    06    40      73     00     06     42       73    e1cb 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30075 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         4          1   01      01    06    40      74     00     06     42       74    f6f8 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30076 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         4          1   01      01    06    41      00     00     06     43       00    2afa 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30077 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      74     00     06     43       02    4d80 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30078 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      73     00     06     43       03    3a75 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30079 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      72     00     06     43       04    e0c3 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30080 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      71     00     06     43       05    1e30 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30081 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      70     00     06     43       06    8402 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 30082 ffffffffffffffffffffffff         0          1   02      00    00    01      69     00     06     43       07    3805 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

iR0b0t wrote:

Until now my discs had no such cases, i do check my disc offsets always on both ways!

Try to redump ClockWerx, verify KoF'96 and check those PAL titles.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

F1ReB4LL wrote:

Try to redump ClockWerx, verify KoF'96 and check those PAL titles.

I will do it if my hardware permissible it, have a patience, and does not remind me every day for it tongue

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Jackal,

You're sentence about wo detection you added on d8 command thread is not true for SS games. Simply look at Gunbird: old method reports wo=+1176, d8 reports wo=0. The second is right because disc has sync and mastering errors (the same is for many other discs, Dremora's mod of px_d8 prooved it because you can find offset only where you have real data).

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

here are the subs, if you wanna more let me know

http://redump.org/disc/5088/ SUB
http://redump.org/disc/4892/ SUB
http://redump.org/disc/5196/ SUB
http://redump.org/disc/5194/ SUB

here is SUB for KoF96 if required

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Thanks iR0b0t

I will edit this post while I check:

1) ClockWerx (J) (Track 05-06) has to be fixed ---> Track06 first sector is 0x02

2) Sega Rally Championship (U) (Track 04-05-06) --> Both track have first 2 sectors (preg 2.02) at 0x00, so they are part of pregap. By the way on Q-SEC coloumn they have 0x02 (I don't know if this mean something and there are 2 dumps matching, so I think it's right).

Frame  P                        Q-CONTROL Q-ADDRESS Q-TNO Q-INDEX Q-MIN Q-SEC Q-FRAME Q-ZERO Q-AMIN Q-ASEC Q-AFRAME Q-CRC16 R                        S                        T                        U                        V                        W                        
 77623 000000000000000000000000         0          1   04      01    04    57      74     00     17     16       69    34bc 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77624 000000000000000000000000         0          1   04      01    04    58      00     00     17     16       70    e627 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77625 000000000000000000000000         0          1   04      01    04    58      01     00     17     16       71    5c57 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77626 000000000000000000000000         0          1   04      01    04    58      02     00     17     16       72    82e6 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77627 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    02      01     00     17     16       73    e7b5 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77628 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    02      00     00     17     16       74    3d03 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77629 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      74     00     17     17       00    6a41 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77630 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      73     00     17     17       01    1db4 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77631 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      72     00     17     17       02    8786 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77632 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      71     00     17     17       03    7975 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77633 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      70     00     17     17       04    a3c3 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000
 77634 000000000000000000000000         0          1   05      00    00    01      69     00     17     17       05    1fc4 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000

3) Cyber Speedway (E) (Track 03-04, 06-07, 12-13, 13-14, 16-17, 18-19). Same as above for all tracks with 2.02 pregap on Q-ADDRESS 0x00 and on Q-SEC 0x02.

4) Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G)

A. Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G) (Track 06-07) has to be fixed ---> Track07 first sector is 0x02

B. Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G) (all tracks with 2.02 pregap). Same as Sega Rally Championship (U)/Cyber Speedway (E) for all tracks with 2.02 pregap on Q-ADDRESS 0x00 and on Q-SEC 0x02.

5) King of Fighters '96, The (J) (Track 12-13) has been fixed OK ---> Track13 first sector is 0x02

Finished.

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Rocknroms wrote:

By the way on Q-SEC coloumn they have 0x02 (I don't know if this mean something and there are 2 dumps matching, so I think it's right).

0x02 means 2nd second smile 1 second = 75 frames, so after 01:74 it comes 02:00, then 02:01. So yes, they are fine.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Rocknroms wrote:

Checked both games left from my dumps.
Kyutenkai is ok.

What's inside the first sector of that 02:01 pregap (i.e. in the last sector of the datatrack, if we assume the pregap is 02:00)? I have Gale Racer (already dumped, ring is the same) http://redump.org/disc/3027/ - track02 pregap is clearly 02:01, but that sector contains pure data, which shouldn't be in the pregap. Unscrambled 0 sector also shows +222 offset, so it shouldn't be +810. We should either leave it as 02:00 or add that doubtful sector to the pregap, like it was done in similar cases with CD32 - http://redump.org/disc/3872/ and http://redump.org/disc/4032/

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

F1ReB4LL wrote:
Rocknroms wrote:

Checked both games left from my dumps.
Kyutenkai is ok.

What's inside the first sector of that 02:01 pregap (i.e. in the last sector of the datatrack, if we assume the pregap is 02:00)? I have Gale Racer (already dumped, ring is the same) http://redump.org/disc/3027/ - track02 pregap is clearly 02:01, but that sector contains pure data, which shouldn't be in the pregap. Unscrambled 0 sector also shows +222 offset, so it shouldn't be +810. We should either leave it as 02:00 or add that doubtful sector to the pregap, like it was done in similar cases with CD32 - http://redump.org/disc/3872/ and http://redump.org/disc/4032/

Sector is empty (0x00), but I'll check again in weekend.
By the way sometimes data is present in pregap, but you can see it by sync after calculating write offset. Ex. Magical Hopper has first sector of audio track as data (it's the only one I found), it's shifted exactly equal to write offset with data track.

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Rocknroms wrote:

By the way sometimes data is present in pregap, but you can see it by sync after calculating write offset. Ex. Magical Hopper has first sector of audio track as data (it's the only one I found), it's shifted exactly equal to write offset with data track.

As I've said, wo should be +810 for that, +222 leaves the whole data sector (2352 bytes) in the 1st sector of track02 pregap.

asapy's help is needed (he is the dumper of Gale Racer) - I guess, p_star has already sold his copy.

And all the CDs with C xx ring should be reverified, if possible, and further dumps should also be verified, because it's seems to be a common thing (remember Virtua Fighter Remix with its 1.74, for example).

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Finally I can get back on this, I'll post possible fixes within today/tomorrow.

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

FIXES TODO:

iR0b0t please check if yours are right:

ClockWerx (J) (Track 05-06)
http://redump.org/disc/5088/

Track06 pregap is 1.74, new checksum for track05-06

rom ( name "ClockWerx (J) (Track 05).bin" size 33224352 crc 2fd07a51 md5 58302f836dac570747899711126990fa sha1 bbe80ce29fd2f8b823504129eef57142e16b792b )
rom ( name "ClockWerx (J) (Track 06).bin" size 33713568 crc c3e9b5b6 md5 aff39ceffabbadf432f2fbfe510850dd sha1 ef1d3c2082a8599ef355359839ff8aa5335ede16 )
.
.

Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special (J) (Track 18-19)
http://redump.org/disc/1747/

Track19 pregap is 1.74, new checksum for track18-19

rom ( name "Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special (J) (Track 18).bin" size 23639952 crc 98b0bcaf md5 8df7f76b4d31debf8e4a9bc252162d80 sha1 4dce71a5a29d2468b11ef719ecd8a8028097bc83 )
rom ( name "Real Bout Garou Densetsu Special (J) (Track 19).bin" size 23639952 crc c350aacb md5 01487c7ebd5faa64ea7e4a883ab554c7 sha1 b2a69c28540f6ecf4de0d944b2c0dcf0527acdfc )
.
.

Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G) (Track 06-07)
http://redump.org/disc/5194/

Track07 pregap is 2.00, new checksum for track06-07

rom ( name "Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G) (Track 06).bin" size 48397104 crc f23bcc99 md5 374a68b252b1a7783391a27f06d2380c sha1 8e12ab7e1302e2bdd317b8b0b875ac297febb04d )
rom ( name "Thunderhawk 2 - Firestorm (G) (Track 07).bin" size 42343056 crc 79625e42 md5 dadf3999d236b80620e0c1363d04769c sha1 dad7b0a8089aa09e15dc27f404fd28c287d4536f )
.
.
My patch requests thread
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Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

iR0b0t's drive is busted, it's not able to read the subs correctly, all his dumps are suspicious now.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

PX760A not able to read subs correctly? roll you must be dreaming..

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

i did the subs not with PX-760A, i did them with an other LG drive, this maybe be the reason,

but it does not mean that "all his dumps are suspicious now"

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Maybe these ones weren't read with Plextor. If he check his dumps at least twice on different drives and another one can read them, it's fine. But this particular one reads subchannels wrong and completely unsuitable for dumping.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

okay, i will use PX-760A to read the subs out, but which tool is the best for it?

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Use the latest perfectrip in .ccd mode with 100b mode and a low speed (cdreader can't extract a full images of mixed mode cd's afaik).

ps. of the 52 saturn games that you dumped, 12 are verified.. also, I don't see how subchannel reading can go wrong?

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

There's always a random block (1-3 sectors, usually) after the track02 pregap taken from the earlier part of the CD, also there's the same sector before and right after that block.

01 02 00 00 00 03 00 05 56 04 -- pregap
01 02 00 00 00 02 00 05 56 05 -- pregap
01 02 00 00 00 01 00 05 56 06 -- pregap
01 02 00 00 00 00 00 05 56 07 -- 1st copy of this sector, Q-Index is 00
01 02 00 00 01 74 00 05 54 07 -- taken from the earlier part of the CD
01 02 00 00 01 73 00 05 54 08 -- taken from the earlier part of the CD
01 02 00 00 01 72 00 05 54 09 -- taken from the earlier part of the CD
01 02 01 00 00 00 00 05 56 07 -- 2nd copy of this sector, Q-Index is 01
01 02 01 00 00 01 00 05 56 08

There are also various offsets along the whole sub.

iR0b0t wrote:

okay, i will use PX-760A to read the subs out, but which tool is the best for it?
i can also use cdreader

I'd like to see clonecd ones at first. Both clonecd and PR 100b ones would be even better.

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

subs repost:

http://redump.org/disc/5088/   perfectrip
http://redump.org/disc/5250/   perfectrip
http://redump.org/disc/5194/   perfectrip
http://redump.org/disc/5196/   perfectrip
http://redump.org/disc/4892/   perfectrip

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

Subs taken by iR0b0t were enough oo verify EAN problem. I too see that they are not right for a complete analisys like other ones, but there was no dat-audio to check or more complex situation, so I don't see any problem. iR0b0ts dumps are right.
By the way for archiving it's better to have sub in the correct way (ps: I prefer to use Alcohol instead of CloneCD, this progam is simply horrible to install and use).
I confirm again, as said by Jackal, that Cdreader stops extraction at the end of data track on 99% on mixed CDs).

The SS games that have to be checked again with a new dump are these:

http://redump.org/disc/2674/
http://redump.org/disc/3811/
http://redump.org/disc/3315/
http://redump.org/disc/1629/

and Gale Racer, but if that sector is pregap (if it syncs with audio but it's data) it must stand in audio track (like for some CD32). Simply look at sector on CD.
Magical Hoppers has clearly a data sector moved of +30(+wo) on a Plextor, so this is part of audio track. It's a sector, it' in pregap. If you play it on PC you hear a "clink", but on real machine/emulator it cannot be heard. Moreover, it's not a game audiotrack, but the copyright stuff. Indeed, if a dumped game has a "clink" on a game audiotrack and you hear it in gameplay, probably we can have even a bad dump or a signed disc.

About verifing discs with ring code ending with C XX, this is a loss of time because it has already discussed that those discs are "strange" (multiple alternates, different pregaps, different write offsets, etc.).

My patch requests thread
--------------------------------

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

i'm sorry, but imho regarding gap sizes this is going way too far.
what's the point of checking every CD manually, when in the end it means so little - it's the same data anyway...
why not just take single pattern for gap layout (like data->audio 2:00 audio->audio 1:74)
and go with it whenever deviations from this pattern are small enought, say 01-02 sectors

if ther's some really strange gaps, like KOF'95 - ok, it's different then.
but what's the point of investing time to check whether gap should be 2:01 or 2:00
and after all this, probabbly end up with something like:
0:00
2:00
2:00
2:01
2:00
...
imho it does not make sense anyway...
why not have all neat 1:74 or 2:00 gaps instead?

edit:
i mean - if ther's difficulties with drive and it reports some gaps wrongly because of subcode
i don't think it's a problem really - just go with pattern, no need to analyze thoroughly
(except maybe take a look at sector content at the end of 1st track; beginning of 2nd, where data changes to audio.
but everyone should be doing this anyway)
and when gap structure is analyzed and decision made to keep one or more little different gaps
(because it says so in subcode) - it's still wrong imho

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

themabus wrote:

what's the point of checking every CD manually

It's not needed anymore, there's a tool almost ready. 2themabus: i'd like to have some PCE CD ones, if possible (better some tougher ones).

Re: [SS] Something about dumping Saturn games (updated 04/12/08)

2Rocknroms: your drive has another disease. Most of your subs also have a similar issue (track02 index MSF offsets before and after the pregap). Most, but not all - seems you've used a different drive for some of them.

Cyberbots - Fullmetal Madness (J) (T-1216G) - bug
Gussun Oyoyo S (J) (T-26101G) - bug
Whizz (J) (T-36102G) - bug
Puzzle Bubble 2X (J) (T-1106G) - bug
Samurai Spirits - Amakusa Kourin (J) (T-3116G) - bug
Chibi Maruko-Chan no Taisen Puzzledama (J) (T-9507G) - bug

Gunbird (J) (T-14402G) - no bug
Kyutenkai (J) (T-1801G) - no bug

C) Wrong "track02" pregap, bigger pregap and so smaller data track and sectors of data in "track02" pregap.

Solution: Forget PR and dump the old way IsoBuster+EAC.

This problem was found in the following games:

- Puyo Puyo Sun (J) - http://redump.org/disc/3766/
- Waku Waku Puyo Puyo Dungeon (J) - http://redump.org/disc/3751/

Moreover the following games have wrong pregap detection both on PR and EAC with a Plextor:

- Panzer Dragoon (J) - http://redump.org/disc/2636/ and http://redump.org/disc/3243/
- SteamGear Mash (J) - http://redump.org/disc/3890/

3) Games with INDEX > 1

Dark Savior (J) - http://redump.org/disc/5045/ - real cue
Magical Drop (J) - http://redump.org/disc/4206/ - real cue
Monster Slider (J) - http://redump.org/disc/5052/ - real cue
Prikura - Princess Clara Daisakusen (J) - http://redump.org/disc/4916/ - real cue

Can you put these subs somewhere? About multiple index ones -- seems, EAC has a serious bug with postgap detecting, checked my EAC-generated cues, some tracks have totally wrong indexes and last tracks postgaps are missing.