1 Topic by user7 (edited by user7 2020-08-12 14:28:39)

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I was chatting with Fireball about Karaoke and whether that would fit in here at Redump. While the Kiss-Site has video game functionality (scoring), iKTV and CD-G do not. So if iKTV should be in redump then so should CD-G, they both lack any kind of additional video game functionality (then it goes without saying, that if one of the two should NOT be in redump, then the other one shouldn't either).

Wikipedia: "Karaoke is a type of dining interactive entertainment or video game developed in Japan in which an amateur singer sings along with recorded music (a music video) using a microphone."

IMO this is enough to qualify for me. Thoughts on allowing Karaoke CD-G entries or removing iktv? Executive decision iRobot?

I recently built out the iKTV miss list http://wiki.redump.org/index.php?title=Tao_iKTV_CD
and noticed many discs are super cheap on eBay. So I'd like some clarification on this before I buy any for Redump.

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2 Reply by user7 (edited by user7 2020-08-12 14:43:45)

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Fireball pointed out a couple video game-related CD-Gs http://redump.org/disc/23529/ http://redump.org/disc/31953/

They need the subs to properly function, so redump should either add the subs for download or include in the dat.

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3 Reply by Jackal (edited by Jackal 2020-08-12 17:51:31)

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user7 wrote:

They need the subs to properly function, so redump should either add the subs for download or include in the dat.

I'm sure that iR0b0t will get into high gear when reading this post (not)

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I have some japanese Video CD Karaoke by clarion. I think they are not CD-G discs, just VCD discs (has CDI, KARAOKE, MPEGAV and VCD dirs) like Sega Prologue ones. They are seen by DIC as DiscType: CD-ROM XA Disc. I think they are not useful for redump.
So what to do with them also ?

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5 Reply by user7 (edited by user7 2020-08-12 21:20:12)

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Madroms wrote:

I think they are not useful for redump.
So what to do with them also ?

That's the broader question. Is "just karaoke" (iKTV / CD-G, etc) a "game" / should we dat it here?

My vote is yes. But I got a feeling it will be up to iRobot. Either way there is no gameplay functionality difference between iKTV and CD-G karaoke, so the decision should be the same on both.

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I would say yes to all TBH.

speaking of which,  have just taken delivery of 25 Kiss-Site discs. (and more on the way)
if you can forgive the potato camera quality

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/688192258406875248/743918078064328804/IMG_20200814_204326.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/688192258406875248/743918104031002665/IMG_20200814_204348.jpg

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Ehh. CD+G discs are normal Audio CDs and fall under the same rules, but we need a way to either attach a subchannel file or, at least, its checksum into the dat.
iKTV and Kiss-Site need some additional examination about whether they only play Video CDs or have some basic interactivity as well.
Anyway, iKTV and Kiss-Site can be locked within their own sections, since they don't have too many releases.

8 Reply by user7 (edited by user7 2020-08-17 13:28:44)

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>need some additional examination about whether they only play Video CDs or have some basic interactivity as well.

So basically they could have the same game-play functionality of CD-Gs?

I think I'll pass, if no one is going to define rules that universally apply, I'm not going to waste my money to see the category get nuked over a change of heart.

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user7 wrote:

I think I'll pass, if no one is going to define rules that universally apply, I'm not going to waste my money to see the category get nuked over a change of heart.

Why should we nuke them? iKTV and Kiss-Site have their own sections already, while CD+Gs belong to the Audio CD section due to their nature (and it's probably not the best idea to throw hundreds of karaoke discs there).

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There's no gameplay difference between cd+g and iktv, it seems like a very arbitrary decision to keep one but not the other.

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I wanted to bump this discussion to seek clarity / rules about datting Karaoke VCDs.

1)
I noticed that iKTV and Kiss-Site have their own respective dats:
http://redump.org/discs/system/iktv/
http://redump.org/discs/system/ksite/

I think this probably is not a great idea because they appear to just be standard VCDs, and there are countless karaoke VCDs / series. So it would kind of be like datting Photo CDs that are branded 3DO under the 3DO system.

If we want the karaoke VCDs separate from the other VCDs, maybe we have a 'VCD - Karaoke' dat?


2)
In the past we've kind of touched on whether or not Karaoke qualifies as a game and should be included. Can we establish a rule one way or the other? For example if Karaoke VCDs are dattable, are karaoke CD+G or karaoke DVD? Not that I think anyone is going after these discs per se. If we're taking votes, personally I think karaoke could be considered a game.

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My personal opinion on the matter:
Yes, Karaoke should be datted by Redump. It's a bit of a grey area but if we don't dat it, it'll likely be lost.
I feel iKTV and Kiss-Site should remain separate as they're dedicated discs for specific systems (Even if they're playable on other devices).
Karaoke should be a category in my opinion, like Games, Video, Add-Ons, etc.

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>I feel iKTV and Kiss-Site should remain separate as they're dedicated discs for specific systems (Even if they're playable on other devices).

To play devil's advocate, shouldn't we split off the Philips CD-i branded VCDs then into their own dat?

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user7 wrote:

>To play devil's advocate, shouldn't we split off the Philips CD-i branded VCDs then into their own dat?

"Phillips CD-i branded VCDs" is a step in the wrong direction.
Video CDs must contain a corresponding application for playback on CD-i players by specification (White Book, CD-I Bridge). If they don't then they are not real Video CDs (even if other players don't care).

Rather than splitting off Philips CD-i (and/or marking most of them with comments that "this disc is compatible with CD-i"), it should be noted down if a disc is NOT compatible with Philips CD-i and then maybe even thrown away because it is not a real VCD (see above).

Coming back to Karaoke: Karaoke-CD 1.0 is the first version of the Video-CD specification. So they are all one big happy family.

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15 Reply by user7 (edited by user7 2022-09-08 18:04:32)

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Karaoke-CD 1.0 is the first version of the Video-CD specification

Just to clarify for the iKTV and Kiss-Site, the format is standard VCD. It doesn't make any sense to split them off into their own dat per existing rules for other systems. I'm just seeking clarification because it appears redump is breaking their own rules for iKTV and Kiss-Site branded VCDs.

For example, if iKTV and Kiss-Site branded VCDs beings split-off into their own dats was based on an established rule:
-Philips CDi branded VCDs should have their own dedicated set.
-Philips CDi branded Photo CDs should have their own dedicated set.
-3DO branded Photo CDs should have their own dedicated set.
-Hundreds of VCD Karaoke series should each get their own set.

I'm sure there's a few other examples to be found, but the above came to mind quite readily does make an interesting case for what an established rule would look like. Not that I expect any codified rule to clear this up because quite frankly no one's all that interested in VCD or Karaoke (including me tbh), but splitting the same format into multiple dats arbitrarily does give me OCD.

Alright, manifesto finished and I rest my case. I'll leave this in the hands of the mods.

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It's either this or Kiss-Site and iKTV get removed entirely, and put into the VCD dat with (Kiss-Site) and (iKTV) added to the end. Which I consider much worse than what we have now.

We cannot create new dats, it's important to emphasize that and remind people of our lack of power on the site because of our incompetent site admin.

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Never noticed this. Looks like Kiss-Site and iKTV are the same hardware set. https://twitter.com/MrBurns32X/status/1 … w&s=19

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Yeah that's what spurred this change, I suggested putting iKTV stuff in the TKS dat, but Fireball wasn't keen on that and said to just use the iKTV dat.

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19 Reply by user7 (edited by user7 2022-12-11 18:50:38)

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Mod consensus on the discord is that Karaoke discs of formats that aren't automatically qualified for Redump should not be included at redump (VCD, CD+G, DVD-Video), and No-Intro Non-Redump dats would serve as a better home. If any Mod cares to challenge this and hold a vote - by all means do so. But otherwise, this question should be considered answered.

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