1 (edited by Read Only 2014-10-30 13:45:43)

Topic: some PC name fixes

http://redump.org/disc/21962/
11th Hour, The - La suite de The 7th Guest (France) (Disc 1)
11th Hour, The - La Suite de The 7th Guest (France) (Disc 1)
up to disc 4

http://redump.org/disc/21774/
Call of Duty (France) (Disc 1) (Jeu de l'annee)
Call of Duty (France) (Disc 1) (Jeu de l'Annee)
up to disc 2

http://redump.org/disc/22140/
G.H.O.S.T. Hunters - Le manoir hante ! (France)
G.H.O.S.T. Hunters - Le Manoir Hante ! (France)

http://redump.org/disc/21918/
Phantasmagoria - Priez Le Ciel Qu'il Ne S'agisse Que D'un Cauchemar (France) (Disc 1) (SierraOriginals)
Phantasmagoria - Priez le Ciel Qu'Il Ne S'Agisse Que d'un Cauchemar (France) (Disc 1) (SierraOriginals)
up to disc 7

http://redump.org/disc/5098/
Phantasmagoria - Priez Le Ciel Qu'il Ne S'agisse Que D'un Cauchemar (France) (Disc 1)
Phantasmagoria - Priez le Ciel Qu'Il Ne S'Agisse Que d'un Cauchemar (France) (Disc 1)
up to disc 7

http://redump.org/disc/22621/
Retour Sur l'Ile Mysterieuse (France) (Disc 1)
Retour sur l'Ile Mysterieuse (France) (Disc 1)
up to disc 2 + same issue on the following:
http://redump.org/disc/21982/
http://redump.org/disc/22407/

http://redump.org/disc/22132/
Riven - La suite de Myst (France) (Disc 1)
Riven - La Suite de Myst (France) (Disc 1)
up to disc 5

http://redump.org/disc/21989/
Tex Murphy - Overseer (Mise a jour v1.03) (France)
Tex Murphy - Overseer (France) (Mise a Jour v1.03)
region flag is prior to any other

http://redump.org/disc/22404/
Road to India - Entre mystere, reve et realite (France)
Road to India - Entre Mystere, Reve et Realite (France)

that's enough for now, good luck smile

Re: some PC name fixes

Wait, do these fixes follow any "official" capitalization standard? I understand there are several possibilities in French (see http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/French; http://french.about.com/library/writing … titles.htm), but it seems you simply use the English capitalization rules (lower case prepositions, conjunctions, articles; everything else upper case).

On a general note, redump is currently very inconsistent with French, Spanish, Swedish, ... capitalization. I'd really like to see an official statement on whether we should follow language-specific capitalization rules (which seems to work great for German titles atm) or simply force the English rules on every other language (which I think is stupid, to be honest).

Re: some PC name fixes

the above submissions are based on the convention used by redump, which isn't based on English grammar btw

I have never heard of any language specific rule

Re: some PC name fixes

@Read Only
The current title naming should be okay actually.

I assume the mods who approved these dumps while adding used to follow the capitalization standard which is set in http://redump.org/guide/ description, which should be identical to no-intro standard too.

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

5 (edited by amarok 2014-10-30 07:44:13)

Re: some PC name fixes

(deleted my initial response; I think I'm giving this too much thought...)

6 (edited by Read Only 2014-10-30 13:49:00)

Re: some PC name fixes

iR0b0t wrote:

The current title naming should be okay actually.

I assume the mods who approved these dumps while adding used to follow the capitalization standard which is set in http://redump.org/guide/ description, which should be identical to no-intro standard too.

they're definitely not, they're neither consistent with your convention nor with other French titles in your database

example : http://redump.org/disc/22408/
that one follows strictly the redump/no-intro convention

So I guess they were included as is because the dumpers/database editors were clueless or careless about certain foreign languages. I've seen a lot of similar issues with foreign titles through the redump database, so it's not anything new to me.

My above submissions should be good.

Re: some PC name fixes

@amarok : Why? Any thoughts are welcome, specially yours as you made a contribution to many things ))

PX-760A (+30), PX-W4824TA (+98), GSA-H42L (+667), GDR-8164B (+102), SH-D162D (+6), SOHD-167T (+12)

Re: some PC name fixes

Well, okay.

I just think the No-Intro standard is a bit "lazy" when it comes to capitalization. Their naming convention says that "all common names, adjectives and verbs should be uppercased. Articles and link words should be lowercased except when first word." That's fine for English titles, but most (if not all) languages have totally different capitalization "rules".

Take German, for example. In German, adjectives and verbs are written in lower case. If we followed the No-Intro guidelines strictly, we'd have to change many titles. For example, "007: Die Welt ist nicht genug" would be "007: Die Welt Ist Nicht Genug"; "   
LEGO Insel 2: Der Steinbrecher kehrt zurück" would be "LEGO Insel 2: Der Steinbrecher Kehrt Zurück"; "Die Stadt der verlorenen Kinder" would be "Die Stadt der Verlorenen Kinder". These are just a few random examples. For me as a German this looks just wrong tongue

Other languages have different rules. In many languages, you don't capitalize anything unless it's a common name, is the first word of a sentence or capitalized to look more stylish. An example for such a language is Swedish. Currently, the database is quite inconsistent:

In "Disney's Atlantis: En Försvunnen Värld", for example, every word is capitalized. "Harry Potter och fången från Azkaban", on the other hand, follows the rule to only capitalize the common names "Harry Potter" and "Azkaban". "Vem vill bli Miljonär" follows the German capitalization rules for some reason (the verbs "vill" and "bli" being lower case, the noun "miljonär" upper case).

The correct spelling for these examples is "Disney's Atlantis: En försvunnen värld"; "Harry Potter och fången från Azkaban";  "Vem vill bli miljonär". The No-Intro spelling would be "Disney's Atlantis: En Försvunnen Värld"; "Harry Potter och Fången Från ; Azkaban"; "Vem Vill Bli Miljonär".

We have the same problem with other languages such as Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish and so on. As for French, the situation is a bit more tricky. There are several valid capitalization schemes, so we'd have to decide on one (I'd propose the one MusicBrainz uses).

When I was a mod, I always tried to go with these language-specific rules (as stated by the redump dumping guide: "For capitalization standard we are using, see MusicBrainz"). Other mods regularly edited many of my entries. Maybe they thought it looks better to have everything in upper case, I don't know. As I said, I'd propose to go with the correct rules for each language, even if it's not consistent with the No-Intro guidelines.

The reason I edited my response was that this is really not that big a deal. I didn't want to sound like a maniac for obsessing about such a minor problem tongue Well, too late for that, I guess tongue

9 (edited by Read Only 2014-10-30 23:19:00)

Re: some PC name fixes

amarok wrote:

Well, okay.

I just think the No-Intro standard is a bit "lazy" when it comes to capitalization. Their naming convention says that "all common names, adjectives and verbs should be uppercased. Articles and link words should be lowercased except when first word." That's fine for English titles, but most (if not all) languages have totally different capitalization "rules".

Sorry but I stopped reading there. Correct me if I'm wrong but English grammar never had such a capitalization rule. This is a capitalization convention based on a certain tradition specific to titles, it is unrelated to proper grammar.

English capitalization grammar is the same as the one of any Germanic or Latin language as far as I know : the first letter of the first word of a sentence if capitalized, as are the first letter of proper nouns, and that's it.

10 (edited by amarok 2014-10-31 00:06:19)

Re: some PC name fixes

Correct me if I'm wrong but English grammar never had such a capitalization rule. This is a capitalization convention based on a certain tradition specific to titles, it is unrelated to proper grammar.

I wasn't speaking about English in general, only titles. And I have never said that these "rules" apply to anything aside from titles. You're absolutely right, this isn't a fixed set of rules -- it's more like guidelines people have agreed on over the time (that's why I put the quotation marks around the word "rules" in my last post...). In fact, it would be just as correct if we just used regular English sentence capitalization (referred to as "sentence case" here). Either variant is perfectly fine. But I don't think that anyone on this project would want to switch to sentence case...

English capitalization grammar is the same as the one of any Germanic or Latin language as far as I know : the first letter of the first word of a sentence if capitalized, as are the first letter of proper nouns, and that's it.

German would be a counter-example. We capitalize all nouns.

Re: some PC name fixes

amarok wrote:

German would be a counter-example. We capitalize all nouns.

Interesting, I didn't know about that, sorry. Could explain the confusion a bit. I speak four languages, but German isn't part of it.

Does it apply to any other Germanic language or is it German specific?

Re: some PC name fixes

AFAIK this is specific to German (and Luxembourgish, which isn't really that important for redump tongue )

Anyway, I think we shouldn't follow the one-size-fits-all approach of No-Intro but rather go with the various language-specific title capitalization conventions (as mentioned above).

Re: some PC name fixes

I wouldn't see any upside to it, only downsides, throwing more confusion. Sticking to one convention is enough work.

14 (edited by amarok 2014-11-01 06:58:13)

Re: some PC name fixes

The upside? 1. Consistency, both internally (see the various Swedish DB entries I've mentioned earlier, for example -- it's all just completely inconsistent right now) and externally (with the rest of the world going by these rules). 2. In case of German, it doesn't break grammaticality (having verbs/adjectives in upper case is just grammatically wrong; furthermore, certain words have different meanings in upper case vs. lower case).

The downside? 1. requires you to have some very basic knowledge of the language (to be able to tell what's a proper noun, for instance). 2. requires you to think. 3. no-intro does it differently. 4. it doesn't look as uniform as having one style for all languages

As I see it, it's not going to happen. Well, sorry for "taking over" your topic, Read Only. I was asked to state my opinion, which I did. What you do with it is up to you (I'm talking to the "higher-ups" here tongue ). I still think the upside is more important than the downside here. But it's really not that big a deal anyway.

Re: some PC name fixes

database editors have difficulties to comply with a convention as simple as the one used currently and you expect them to be able to keep up with a convention including per-language variations? with all due respect, get real, especially when they can't even keep up with the new dumps flow

there is a far more simple way to deal with current inconsistencies : fix them to be convention compliant

anyway I don't really care, I can live with the database remaining a mess