• Registered: 2013-09-02
  • Posts: 137

Hi all. I picked up a few Macintosh-only CD-ROM games at a garage sale over the weekend, and am attempting to dump them properly. The Macintosh disc image format is clearly different, since my Windows 7 machine won't read the images. However, my drives seem to see the data just fine.

I attempted to dump "Where In the World Is Carmen Sandiego? CD-ROM" using the latest releases of DIC (on my PX-708A) and ISOBuster 3.2 Pro (on my LG-BH16NS40). The hash values matched 1:1, so the dumps appear to be good. Here's what I wanted to ask:

  1. When I lookup the PVD value in Sector 16 using ISOBuster, the lines are all blank (i.e. all 0s). I suspect this may just be normal, but I wasn't sure if this was different because it was a Macintosh disc, if it was just empty (I've seen a few of these before), or if it was possibly an issue with ISOBuster reading sector data from a non-PC disc.

  2. When I attempted to open the image through CDmage, it could not recognize the CUE file generated by DIC. I also could not find the correct way to create one that would get it to open. This too might be normal, but I wanted to see if anyone out there could shed some light on this...

  3. I don't own a Macintosh computer (obviously) and I have no way of opening the disc to look for some of the ancillary data. Does anyone know of a decent emulator or alternative method that might be useful for reviewing these discs for version numbers, etc.?

Any other tips for dumping these discs would be appreciated. smile

Cheers!
-MrTikki-

ATAPI iHBS212 2 HL05 (+6) | LG BH16NS40 (+6) | Plextor PX-W4824TA (+98) | Plextor PX-708A (+30)
  • From: Sevilla - España
  • Registered: 2011-05-16
  • Posts: 1,006

  1. No ISO9660 file system, no PVD to provide, simple as that.

  2. CDmage was developed when Messalina was still alive, it's an old, uncomfortable and buggy app. Cannot open images with a non-standard (for him, of course) file system. You'd better to run another EDC/ECC checker, an one completely file system agnostic.
    edccchk-v1.25-win32.zip
    chkraw0.14.zip (rename lang(en).ini to lang.ini and delete lang(fr).ini).

  3. Possible emulators of Classis Mac OS: Mini vMac, PearPC and BasiliskII.

On semi-vacation. MSF/AMSF to LBA/offset and viceversa calculator: link
To write properly occidental characters contained in japanese titles: screenshot
Spaces must be the fullwidth variant: link / screenshot

3 Reply by MrTikki (edited by MrTikki 2014-07-22 07:34:11)

  • Registered: 2013-09-02
  • Posts: 137

Thanks for the tools, Pablo. I ran both edccchk.exe and chkraw.exe on the images, and they're reporting 0 errors (which is exactly what I expected for a 1994 game disc). And thanks for confirming the PVD issue--I didn't realize it was an ISO9660 thing. smile

My only other question is regarding the CUE file. The following CUE information was generated by DIC:

CATALOG 0000000000000
FILE "CarmenWorldMAC.bin" BINARY
  TRACK 01 MODE1/2352
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

If this were an IBM/PC CD-ROM disc I would say everything looks just fine. However, I wasn't sure if the MODE information was correct given that it's a Macintosh CD-ROM. Furthermore, everytime I tried to use this CUE to open the image it would not recognize the image, and in the case of edccchk.exe...it even crashed it! big_smile

So I mostly want to confirm that the CUE data being generated by DIC is accurate and valid for submission purposes. I don't have any reason to doubt this; I mostly need it for sanity purposes. smile

Cheers!
-MrTikki-

ATAPI iHBS212 2 HL05 (+6) | LG BH16NS40 (+6) | Plextor PX-W4824TA (+98) | Plextor PX-708A (+30)
  • mock
  • Dumper
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-10-15
  • Posts: 146

Mac filesystems do have analogous things to PVDs, although they may not at the same location for every disc. Older HFS discs have a Master Directory Block (MDB), and HFS+ discs have a Volume Header.

For Crystal Caliburn (HFS), the MDB is in sector 3, which I guess is probably standard:
http://i.imgur.com/PAE52wz.png
The highlighted bytes are the creation date and the modification date, which using this translates into 1996-09-24T15:22:16-04:00 and 1997-01-02T12:25:19-05:00. There's also a backup date at 0x0440, which is 1996-12-10T14:09:51-05:00.

Giants: Citizen Kabuto is different, probably because it's a hybrid HFS/HFS+ disc. I had to search the dump to find the headers. The MDB for this disc is in sector 242:
http://i.imgur.com/w9BCFWO.png
I.e. created 2003-01-20T04:50:52-05:00, modified same date. (The Mac port was originally released in 2001, apparently, so I guess that means this is a re-release.) The HFS+ header is in sector 10498:
http://i.imgur.com/q8Zgqah.png
Created: 2003-01-20T04:50:52-05:00
Modified: 2003-01-21T18:38:45-05:00
Backup: 1903-12-31T19:00:00-05:00
Checked: 2003-01-20T10:50:52-05:00

Disc 1 and disc 2 of Giants: Citizen Kabuto put the headers in the same sectors (242, 10498).

Hybrid PC/Mac discs should have this information too, though we currently only record the PC side.
Logical Journey of the Zoombinis Deluxe has the MDB in sector 26 (and at 0x0600 instead of 0x0400 like the others).
Sim City Classic has it at sector 92172.
WarCraft II: Battle.net Edition has it at sector 18479 (and at 0x200).
Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? Classic Edition has it at sector 107449.

So hybrids seem to be unpredictable, but I only have one example of a non-hybrid disc. I'd be interested to see what your Carmen Sandiego disc has.

  • Registered: 2013-09-02
  • Posts: 137

That's good information, but the inconsistency of the location of the MDB has me a bit puzzled. Also, how exactly did you locate yours on Giants?

-MrTikki-

ATAPI iHBS212 2 HL05 (+6) | LG BH16NS40 (+6) | Plextor PX-W4824TA (+98) | Plextor PX-708A (+30)
  • mock
  • Dumper
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-10-15
  • Posts: 146

I just searched the dump for "BD" and "H+" in a hex editor.

  • From: Sevilla - España
  • Registered: 2011-05-16
  • Posts: 1,006

29149

Sector 21, more or less the same timestamps as defined by the ISO9660's PVD.

http://i.imgur.com/Ps3LV0V.png

http://i.imgur.com/1CzkbTk.png

Implementing this new field is up to iR0b0t, though.

On semi-vacation. MSF/AMSF to LBA/offset and viceversa calculator: link
To write properly occidental characters contained in japanese titles: screenshot
Spaces must be the fullwidth variant: link / screenshot

8 Reply by MrTikki (edited by MrTikki 2014-07-22 17:27:37)

  • Registered: 2013-09-02
  • Posts: 137

Hmm. I must be missing something here. There seem to be several H+ / BD matches on this image... (at least from what I see). And sector 21 on this image is empty. In fact, it's 00s all the way up to sector 1025 (begging at sector 5).

ATAPI iHBS212 2 HL05 (+6) | LG BH16NS40 (+6) | Plextor PX-W4824TA (+98) | Plextor PX-708A (+30)
  • From: Sevilla - España
  • Registered: 2011-05-16
  • Posts: 1,006

Just determinate the first sector which belongs to the HFS/HFS+ file system according to the info shown by IsoBuster, via hovering the cursor over the icon of that file system. Without paying the license won't allow you that you can go directly to that sector via right click and Sector Viewer, but you can always do the same thing for the ISO9660 file system and then go manually to the previously determinated sector.

The previous example:

http://i.imgur.com/vYMPPL5.png

A hybrid with ISO9660+Joliet and HFS+:

29413

http://i.imgur.com/SRDESqx.png

http://i.imgur.com/uIT60Ow.png

http://i.imgur.com/ahedWBO.png

Zeroed backup and checked timestamps means 01/01/1904 00:00:00 (GMT).

On semi-vacation. MSF/AMSF to LBA/offset and viceversa calculator: link
To write properly occidental characters contained in japanese titles: screenshot
Spaces must be the fullwidth variant: link / screenshot