• Jackal
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Here are some pros and cons of the random padding that is currently present in all Xbox1 dumps in the database:

Pros:

- It's on the disc. It can be dumped and therefore SHOULD be dumped for complete preservation.

Cons:

- It doesn't appear to have any purpose, not for security, not for anything else
- It makes it impossible to dump xbox games properly on pc drives (at least for now)
- It's not part of the actual game data, or the file system, so why preserve it?
- It also hurts the preservation aspect as far as the size goes: If there is 2gb of game data on the disc, there will be 5gb of random padding. This random padding can't really be compressed, so images are much larger than they can be, and this just for some random useless bytes!

I think in the end it all depends on the interpretation of the word 'preservation'. Valid points can be made for and against including this data. Personally, I don't see how the padding is any more relevant than:

- Ring data on saturn/dreamcast discs which Redump doesn't include in dumps
- Lead-in and lead-out and pregap and postgap data which Redump doesn't include in dumps
- Subchannels which Redump doesn't include in dumps

Redump seems to focus on dumping all relevant game data, so in this perspective, excluding the random padding wouldn't interfere with our goals.

Plz vote in the poll, and I hope the staff will use the results to determine the future direction for this system.


edit: POLL RESULT: 7 votes for keeping the current method, and 3 for removing the random padding

  • Registered: 2008-09-26
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As much as I'd like to see Xbox dumping on the PC become reality, I voted YES. If the data can be dumped, it should be dumped, regardless of the inconvenience this brings. We don't accept scrubbed Wii/GC isos either, do we?

On the other hand, one could argue that all that counts is the game, not its medial embodiment. Then again, we spend so much time on things like correct gap detection, offset shifting, things that don't contribute to the gaming experience at all. We extract PC games as accurate as possible despite not even being able to play them (SecuROM etc.).

If there is a reliable way to extract the data inside these sectors it should be done.

  • user7
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i voted yes, even if its not mandatory in redump sets at the very least the checksum and size should be preserved, even if noted separately.

All my posts and submission data are released into Public Domain / CC0.
  • Jackal
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Checksum and size, of what? the image containing the padding?

To clarify, the random padding is used to fill non-Game sectors, so it's not a section, but it's spread across the entire image (except for the first part, which is the video partition).

  • Registered: 2008-09-29
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I voted yes, like amarok says we don't scrub gamecube images, if we did we couldn't actually call it preserving, more like collecting.

If we did scrub gamecube images they wouldn't work on the wii for starters.

Who knows what will be released in the future, better dunping methods, or even new consoles, that support 1:1 images from the retro days.

He who controls the SPICE... controls the UNIVERSE!
The SPICE must flow.
  • bsbt
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  • Registered: 2008-01-18
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From what I've learned so far on XBOX 1 dumping, the difficulty with dumping with KREON drive is finding the correct location of the security placeholders, not with the random padding.  Maybe you're saying that the security placeholders are part of the random padding, and getting rid of padding gets rid of the security placeholder problem?

I've been able to dump XBOX 1 games with KREON, zero the placeholders using info in the database (which was done with modded XBOX), and I ended up with a dump matching the database.

I've just started buying XBOX 1 games, I have over 80 so far.  Even though I would much prefer dumping them on my KREON drive because of the convenience, I don't want to do it at the expense of less accurate preservation.  I'll get a modded XBOX soon...

Projects like SPS (Software Preservation Society) are going to great extents in order to preserve floppies quite accurately, allowing copy protected discs to be fully preserved.  This is the direction we should aim for.  Just because we don't have a solution for dealing with problematic discs like copy protected cds, saturn rings, etc., doesn't mean we won't have one in the future.  We shouldn't let currently impossible things be a reason to do less with XBOX discs, which are inconvenient but possible to dump.

  • Jackal
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Security placeholders are actually skipped by the dumping software, because of error sectors, so that data isn't preserved (16 x 4096 sectors). If random padding was skipped too, the dumping software could just copy the filesystem data, so then it also wouldn't have to worry about security placeholder locations. So the security placeholders can be labeled 'problematic' because of the inability to dump them in a reliable manner.

A practical disadvantage of the random padding is that scene rips don't include it, so unlike Wii/GC/Xbox360, it's impossible to convert Xbox1 dumps to Redump format without needing several gb's worth of 'patches' just for the random pattern, which isn't really game data. But I guess a similar situation occured with Dreamcast rips <> raw dumps. But AFAIK this is the only system that we have were maybe 75% of the dump data would consist of just random byte patterns that don't have any real use. I guess this point is only valid for 'Collectors' but it also means that less people will be interested in dumping/preserving these games.

8 Reply by amarok (edited by amarok 2010-04-04 22:03:39)

  • Registered: 2008-09-26
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A practical disadvantage of the random padding is that scene rips don't include it, so unlike Wii/GC/Xbox360, it's impossible to convert Xbox1 dumps to Redump format without needing several gb's worth of 'patches' just for the random pattern, which isn't really game data. But I guess a similar situation occured with Dreamcast rips <> raw dumps.

The intention of this project has never been to match scene images but to provide a superior alternative to them. IMO it should not be a criterion whether or not our dumps resemble scene images. I've always thought this project's focus lies on preserving games, not collecting.

Edit:

But AFAIK this is the only system that we have were maybe 75% of the dump data would consist of just random byte patterns that don't have any real use.

Wii, anyone?

  • Jackal
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Well, you beat me to it, I was still editing my post.. But the point that I was trying to make is that, if you sacrifice some (seemingly irrelevant) data, it would make it much easier to dump and secure these images, which is in the end at least as important as getting dumps that are a bit more true to the original, but still not exactly.

  • bsbt
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  • Registered: 2008-01-18
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The scene releases seem to have gotten better with each console generation.

GBA: hacked intros
NGC+XBOX: good game data, but not 1:1 dumps
WII+360: mostly good 1:1 dumps

I see it as our job to fix their mistakes.  We don't need to lower our standards.  Let's do the best that we can do.

  • iR0b0t
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Okay, i must say, excluding padded areas would mean altering the stream.

I know we aren't dumping subchannel data and its almost "same" like exclude these padded areas, but, subchannels can be dumped afterward, those left out areas NOT.

I know, the main point of this poll is to bring a PC dumping method in play, but I am sure we can find a method to use pc ways too even that we are not able to do that now, so please hold on, time will come, and you will be saved tongue

amen smile

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  • Jackal
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Okay, the majority of people prefers more 'accurate' dumps, so I guess the current method will stay.

I just hope that it will be possible some day to make these dumps without the need of a modded console.