but unfortunately lack of information is only one of problems associated with current naming scheme

certain amount of misinformation is being produced:
apparently Sony assigned serials to editions (not titles) for PSX Japan market
now serials are being included in filenames
but, except for a few instances, you will never be able to find later editions (such as PlayStation the Best, PSone Books, etc)
in redump.org's PSX Japan set (outside website, that is)
currently all kinds of serials are being treated on the same level:
Sony's assigned, Publisher's assigned, EXE names, Others (missprints and such)
and, when filename is generated, only first one from set will be included,
which mostly, not always, is EXE name
this creates an illusion of Sony's edition<->serial relationship presence
(to which people are used to - since it's association you'll find everywhere on web,
so i believe this is how they will translate serial: as describing edition),
when in fact it's lost and crooked

also systems would get increasingly diversified for no sound reason -
solely because different ways are implemented to separate colliding records, when there could be one

indeed it is possible to  create scripts that would leech this information from redump.org and reassemble .dat
but it's not a rational solution
it's a hacking in a sense
besides nobody would care about it
why would they, when you're getting data directly from website and even images (CD) organized accordingly?

this is of course my subjective view of things
to one problem there can be several answer
so i wouldn't want to propagandize this (maybe deluded) opinion further on
but rather would like to see people think about those matters, on their own - not being so passive
i hope then, if ther's enough interest, an sensible solution will be reached

Maybe a hand-edited clrmame dat would be sufficient for most info that is now only available on the website.

But still dat and images go a different way. Ideally each image needs to have a file with it that explains what it is, where it is from, additional info about the file and much more.
Even the scene gets this right nowadays with their nice-looking nfos (just look at some nfos from DS roms). Though scene is not about preservation, their NFOs provide good information.

When you obtain dumper status you can use the 'New Disc' function which has exactly that

Hopefully I will obtain "dumper" status soon - I wasn't aware that it could be that easy to post dump info

Therefore, maybe if we could have some sort of "form" with fields that the user could complete it might encourage more people to contribute dump info - or some sort of standard layout that needs to be followed when submitting release info to the forum (everyone seems to have their own ways and inclusion of supplied reports such as LC1/LC2 info and EAC/psxt001z logs).

When you obtain dumper status you can use the 'New Disc' function which has exactly that

ps. could anyone tell me what this topic is about? I seem to have missed something.

I have a fairly large PlayStation collection - in which a good selection of titles I own are currently "undumped". I have been looking for some sort of Goodxxx/TOSEC/No-Intro/etc project focusing on PS-1 for probably a year now - and stumbled on here by accident when looking for a track CRC-32 for a game I dumped in which I was going to patch. I still believe it's early days and in time the project will attract more interest.

I have a fair amount of experience in media backup but not preservation (yes there's a difference), but seem to feel a little uneasy becoming a dumper since I'm new and worry about not filling all the information requirements expected from the dumped image.

Therefore, maybe if we could have some sort of "form" with fields that the user could complete it might encourage more people to contribute dump info - or some sort of standard layout that needs to be followed when submitting release info to the forum (everyone seems to have their own ways and whether they include reports such as LC1/LC2 info and/or EAC/psxt001z logs).

it reminds me of scientific evidence, no matter how much evidence you accumulate (in this case the amount of dumpers with matching checksums), you can never have 100% PROOF unless you do it yourself. thats why a database is not about absolutes, but credence. redump.org provides credence that an image has been dumped properly, thats all that it can do. but considering we're all going to be dead one day, the amount of effort put into ensuring a correct dump has been done as happens on redump, makes us look like professional archivists. on UG, there used to be complaints about images that were incorrectly dumped, this hasnt been the case with the redumps sets and i think that says something, especially when you look at how popular they have become on that tracker (the thread is almost 40 pages long!).

if you ever expect redump to be as popular as no-intro, then the only way to accomplish this is keep on keepin on, dump images and spread sets.

I guess, it would be better to include all the metadata in the dat.

it could be .dat if there would be means to process it afterwards
otherwise it's in vain - it will be lost there

that's completely not what i mean
it's not a matter a trust

ther's enough information in db on website but it's being lost on it's way
what people get are those images that do not mean anything by themselves
only way to connect 'Game (v1.1)' with actual media is through website
i believe there should not be such dependece
images should be on their own - a representation of physical media in electronic form,
an alternative for those that for one reason or another can not have it

it would lack some information, like: cover scans, manuals, but currently it is not our concern - we make backups from CDs
if described properly we could go just this far

there could be other projects that would complete lacking information or redump.org could do it later on
but by current descriptions, which file names are it's impossible

this whole thing we're doing is getting perverted on a last step - that's what's sad - it could be so much better

well, this site might be - on the paper. but when you look at it, what's really happening -
ther's no way to trace back those images to actual CDs - how is this an preservation? it's an charade.

This type of thing has been discussed before over at No-Intro http://forums.no-intro.org/viewtopic.ph … amp;t=1331 and I'm sure in other dumping groups as well. Unless you want to make "themabus dumping project" where the only member is yourself that is the only way to guarantee that every image was dumped from an actual retail disc. FitzRoy from No-Intro said it best "The only person you can trust 100% is yourself."

A friend of mine brought up a great point when he said a lot of people could care less about where a dump came from or how the dump is tagged they just want a clean copy of a game to run in a emulator. The dumping community will always be small it always has been this is not a hobby most people want to get involved with because it either takes special hardware, it's expensive, it's "too hard", or simply the desire to do so is not there. So holding back dumps from your fellow dumpers just because you want more people to dump or you don't agree with the naming scheme is just low. This hobby will never be mainstream and it will never be perfect. Accept it for what it's trying to do and continue foward.

kiczek brings up some really vaild points and I agree 100% when he said "If you arent planning on sharing your dumps why share your hash information?." Dumping disc based media is tough because a lot of the discs we purchase and dump are used and rarely if ever in new condition. Sometimes I have to buy multiple copies of a disc to get a good dump because the previous discs weren't suitable for dumping do to scratches or abrasions. Consider yourself lucky themabus that you have been so successful in getting complete dumps from import media.

Throwing up a ebay link is laughable give me a break man my point was that dumping imports is expensive and it's not guaranteed that the disc you purchase from ebay will be suitable for dumping. It seems that the only reason your holding this little protest is because you have dumped some games that are hard for people to obtain and your using that as leverage to get what you want. Pretty sad man it definitely says a lot about your character. Oh well your going to do what you want to do and everything said here is just my opinion. If you take a step back then that's fine there will always be someone there to replace you.

athough posting images to the site for each disc would probably run into bandwidth problems maybe allow only Dumpers to view this "extra" data giving people an incentive to becoming a dumper.

Redump.org should have a donate to this project link available to help fund not only the sites bandwidth but also to help some of our hard working Dumpers with compensation with aquiring said disc images.

Maybe use some of the donation money for Raffles for Dumpers where each new dump / verified disc they post earns them a "ticket"

It's a fact that no matter your gripes about the site Redump.org is a great resource for disc preservation.

Dumping and hoarding then telling people to goto eBay does not solve anything and only annoys collectors. If you want to motivate others to dump / verify your images just say you will not post them for a certain period of time but outright refusing to ever upload anything is just sad.

If you arent planning on sharing your dumps why share your hash information ? If a dumper does not wish to share his dumps maybe we should have a seperate userclass for "Dump Verifier" so people will know that your "hoarding" your dumps.

as far as naming convention is concerned great stop uploading because you noone else is seeing things your way boo hoo cry more and here is a violin so you can really make us feel sorry for you.

maybe start a site called http://hoarded.notsharing.org im sure you'll get alot of visitors and you can even name them how you like!

What is missing for actual preservation is the attached metadata with more information. This is currently implemented on the redump.org website in a limited way. Ideally this data should be included with the binary copies that were migrated and should be replicated.

I guess, it would be better to include all the metadata in the dat.

you guys can check early alpha version of this project at:
http://vg-database.com

and dont just look, but browse some stuff , because user interface is currently completely non intuitive
no documentation yet... etc , but gimme some more time and all will be ready

PS.
oh, and registrations are open if anyone would like to check forms for adding stuff, all data on the site is managable by users, using submition system for normal users and immediate change for users with priviledges...

Can you tell me any side that does correct "preservation"? :x

i can't

in my opinion TOSEC is overdoing it with meaningless information tags while not making backups properly

i'm not familiar with cartridge media, hence can not comment on No-Intro - how good it's done
but i think at least their naming convention provide a good means for such implementation

indeed, you're right

i see .dat and everything derived from it (also CD images) as independent set of information on it's own.
website is merely a mechanism to produce it, there shouldn't be further dependence.

names should change.

they can hold a lot of this meta-data associated with source material.
as of now they basically serve only to identify title and then separate records - avoid collisions.
they could describe source medium better, down to edition at least - as far as it's possible.

for example, currently 'many-to-one' relationship from db is being reduced to 'one-to-one' in .dat
when several editions would yield similar CRCs, this information is lost outside of redump.org
this problem will escalate with time (and it's only one from several)

would somebody want to add covers or manuals now for PSX CDs - an independent project linked with redump.org images -
he'd be faced with fact that it's impossible to do so without manual examinination of records on redump.org website

This site is about disc PRESERVATION.

well, this site might be - on the paper. but when you look at it, what's really happening -
ther's no way to trace back those images to actual CDs - how is this an preservation? it's an charade.

Can you tell me any side that does correct "preservation"? :x

There is an interesting article on english Wikipedia that outlines most things what preservation is about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_preservation

Currently the redump.org project does only two of the strategies mentioned there: migration and replication.

Migration from the physical media to one or more binary files and a cue text file that represents the TOC of the disc. This is done using more or less accurate steps (offset detection and that).

Replication for this information gotten by migration by "spreading" it over the world to other people. Since all of the data is copyrighted and the project has no permission to replicate it (yet), this could be called a copyright violation or piracy. (The difference to actual preservation done by the various 'institutes' is that we do the replication publically, which means that everyone could be a preservation mirror.)

What is missing for actual preservation is the attached metadata with more information. This is currently implemented on the redump.org website in a limited way. Ideally this data should be included with the binary copies that were migrated and should be replicated.
Also everything else that were with the physical media should be preserved (Cover, Manual).

One has to note that even the SPS (Software Preservation Society), which is actively archiving the contents of various (floppy) disk formats since 2001, is not able to accurately write back their IPF images to physical media (at least they have not released any piece of software/hardware able to do that yet).

So what should be done to make it "real preservation" for you? For myself, including metadata that has more information how the dump has been obtained would be a good starting point.

Addendum: Just to add, you cannot force people to actually help preserving. Most people do not really care about it, they just think redump.org is a good way to get clean images for playing the games with an emulator. Having a dat file available to everyone just implies that you want to have the images spread for everyone (else the checksum information on the site would be enough for people to verify they have a good image).

themabus wrote:

oh ok, i see

i'm sorry about that, but i won't upload anything anymore
i hope those missing images would motivate people to redump them and join project
maybe they would see things as i see them regarding naming and would somehow accelerate an decision
that may be stupid, but about only thing i can do

Wow pretty selfish act man and I hope we don't see this kind of pointless protest from other people on this site? I don't see the point in hoarding dumps in hopes that more people will redump EXPENSIVE hard to obtain discs from Japan? The last thing this site needs is dumpers not willing to share because of some personal protest.

This site is about disc PRESERVATION. BadSector isn't some leecher collecting images just for himself the guy makes a great effort to distribute dumps to help ensure preservation. Redumps will come in time and more people will join and help as time goes on. For the sake of game preservation I hope you reconsider your stand.

Actually i agree with themabus, when i started to upload redump.org games at UG one of my main 2 intentions what that with this more peoples will know about the project and will dump there games from there collection. and thou i did received a lot of help in spreading those dumps, not many peoples actually become new dumpers. i would actually like to see more and more peoples to dump there original games for redump.org, coz no matter if they share it or not if they will dump it and expand the redump.org DB, we will have those games somehow

and as i said before i would myself like the naming scheme to be updated.